I only know of red merles being masked in australian shepherd, never heard of it in border collies HOWEVER I do know of several litters with ee red dogs from matings involving a merle parent. One was a complete surprise to the breeder as the bitch was ISDS registered and was not expected to carry the gene, the stud dog was blue and white and the bitch a slate merle so only blue and white and slate merle pups were expected (with or without tan) The other two litters were deliberate and personally I can see no reason for them. Any one of these pups could be a merle and there is no visible sign of it The two pups from the first litter have both been neutered, I know at least one blue merle pup from one of the other litters is with a breeder and has already been used at stud. All the pups that are not ee red carry the gene as one parent was that colour and that includes any blue merle pups in that litter. The same ee red stud dog has been used on another "red" merle bitch producing another litter of merle and solid coloured pups that also carry the ee red gene

I think Patch was referring to the response of your post as insulting, not your actual post...............hope that's right

Heck no, it was`nt you who was offensive hun :smt058 it was the response indicating that I would fake a DNA test without Pods presence and the whole attitude that I would lie about my own dogs for years and that the people who have already confirmed whats what years ago have`nt a clue what they are talking about
My dogs are the reason I`m so anti merle to merle matings, I did`nt have a clue about the risks of colour breeding in Collies until I got my own deaf double merles, [ I`m pro-rescue and will never breed anyway so in that respect i never really needed to know ], so its because of them that I want the KC to refuse to register all merle to merle litters to help discourage such matings and to educate potential puppy buyers who know as little about the ramifications as I did before I adopted my boys :smt021

Yes, thats right, it was`nt Mahooli`s post that I found insulting.

Phew! I have seen a double merle dachshund when I lived in Cornwall. They people who owned him had no idea what he was and he had very small deformed eyes. They were pleased that I explained to them what he was as they understood now but he did come from someone who had bought him off someone else as a stud dog! I think the KC should ban merle to merle matings full stop. There is no reason for it nor do merle to merle matings produce % wise more merles than a merle to solid. The only way to definately have a 100% merle litter is to use a double merle but to deliberately breed for that knowing there is a very high chance of producing deaf/blind puppies is morally and ethically wrong.
I see the KC are now refusing the registration of merle chihuahuas as they do not believe this is a spontaneous mutation and therefore must have been introduced by using another breed so we will no longer see KC reg merle Chihuahua's in the UK (if there are any anyway).
Becky

Its explained quite well on the Brynings BC site, they call relevant colour `Australian red` in BCs and masked [hidden] merles as phantom merles

http://www.bryningbordercollies.com/...Collie-Colours

The matings you mention are exactly the sort of thing I worry so much about, which DNA testing would prevent if only every breeder tested and adhered to the results as to what they are ok to breed from/with or not

Yes, agreeing with colliemad here. Australian red and light sable, which are both uncommon in Border Collies and are the obly colours in the breed that can mask merle. The colour in BCs that is usually referred to as red, is no more likely to mask merle than black.

Merle x merle is actually banned in some countries.... Holland I think, or there was at least some discussion on it.

Dr Willis wrote a very good article in one of the papers, on the merle Chi not long ago. I would think that had some influence on the KC's decision. A good move definitely!

Patch, I have to say, I've found this really interesting regarding the merle/merle thing. I never realised it was actually a problem, as they are not my breed. But reading through all the posts about it and the websites that you put up links for, has really opened up my eyes about the problem and the genetics side of it. Very interesting.

Patch, you are again using distraction tactics.

I do apologise if I really have offended you, it was actually meant to lighten the mood.... but you can be sure that if I was funding DNA testing, I would most defintely make sure that there was absolutely no way I would leave any doubt in my mind that everything was above board! And surely for your own peace of mind, I couldn't then accuse you of faking. With all due respect, this is an internet chat forum and all posters, including yourself are unknown to me.

I think Becky made a very fair suggesstion. Your reaction puts even more doubt in my mind.

If you could though just answer a couple more points.

You say that your vet diagnosed Defa (was it?) with microphthalmia, or was it just small eyes? I don't remembering you mentioning this is the past.

Defa's parents. You say you didn't see them but somebody told you they were merles. Did these actually have visible merle patching?