How do you clone a chip?
Becky

is this a joke,no honestley is it a microchipp with the same number given to 2 dogs as so they can breed from both giving false readings on puppies?honestly just a guess

In the case of a colour anomaly, I'm sure the KC would insist on a vet doing the ID. This is not something that's likely to occur very often. We're talking about the rare occurrence of recessive colours, and point mutations.

As for breeding, there will always be those who try to manipulate the system for their own gain, but to make DNA ID compulsory for breeding would make the practices of puppy farmers far more difficult.

For instance, I believe it is common practice to register puppies to non existent dams to avoid the KC restriction on number of litters registered per dam. If the dam's DNA profile was already recorded with the KC, it would then be an extremely risky practice to do this, as all that is needed in one suspicious owner to have the DNA of his puppy checked... and BANG! The KC have a foolproof (AFAIP) case of fraud.

Now I don't know if the cloning of chips is possible but it's not going to help puppy farmer at all in this situation as it's the parental DNA that's conclusive not the chip. I'm not going to say you can't clone the DNA, it has been done but I doubt puppy farmers would go to that expense!

It is sadly not uncommon at all.
Both my *deaf white boys are the result of such, [ deliberate ], breedings.
Someone once tried to get me to sell my Defa, [ he offered a 4 figure sum ], which was refused [ obviously ! ], then tried to buy his services as a stud because `being a double merle already he`d probably sire a decent merle litter and he looks so striking it would be wrong not to pass that on`.
Yeah, and the deafness with it eh ?
When my response was ` you can`t be serious, thats the most idiotic thing I`ve ever heard` [ along with giving the reasons ], and when I pointed out that I`d had Defa snipped to make sure nothing could be passed on accidentally let alone deliberately the bloke had a go at me for `wasting my lads breeding potential`

Nerve and insanely unscrupulous stupidity - not a good combination :smt021

When there are people out there who are that determined to breed for merles, [ to sell to the gullible at a higher price in many cases ], that they would breed from a deaf white double merle if they could to `increase their chances`, they think nothing of doing `standard` merle to merle matings

*My other deaf boy also has directly related CEA.
Some breeders just could`nt care less what they are risking in the pups they turn out

I know we've had this discussion before Patch but I didn't see anything in the photos of your dogs that looked like merle, double or single, except one perhaps that you didn't say was double merle. Sorry can't remember the names now.

The breeding of merle x merle is of course unethical as it can produce eye and ear deformities but once a double merle is born, it's actually a good policy, as far as the health of resultant pups is concerned, to breed merles from this (assuming merle is what you want), providing of course the dog is in good heath.

Not condoning this for one minute, but if you did have a good double merle, by breeding it to a non merle, you would get a whole litter of normal merles with none of the risk of eye/ear deformities. Provided of course there was good pigment present by virtue of the other gene associated with deafness. Extreme white, which I think is more likely to be the cause of your dogs' deafness Patch.

Willow, Defa and Silk :smt001
Willow and Defa went into rescue with papers, Defa [ who you don`t believe is DM ], was recognised by a friend of his breeder, and knew the sire and dam, George Strain recognised them instantly as double merles, as did the rescue peeps [ who absolutely do know their stuff in this regard ].
Its hard to show merling on them in photos, a lot just bleaches out because of their whiteness and my lack of skill at adjusting my camera
Plus I didnt get a shot of Silks tum which has merling and a small area on her back [ which bleaches out on every pic I`ve taken on her from the surrounding white but its clear to see in the flesh ].

Incidentally, I had further confirmation on Defa, [ not that it was needed, I know he is double merle and have done for many years ], when he had an eye op not long back, the vet commented on how very small his eyes are, and said himself its another of the common indicators of a double merle. Silks eyes are also tiny. A DM does`nt need to have glaringly obvious merling to be identified, it can be as little as one solitary spot.

http://bryningbordercollies.com/Border-Collie-Colours

Willows are ice blue, and only have a partially working retina in one, no retina in the other, [ CEA ], and his merling is more than evident on his bum/base of tail but I can`t remember if I posted a pic showing that as the only clear one I have was an accidental one of him standing next to Fluke when they decided to pee next to each other at the same moment Willow I think is the one you already agreed is DM anyway though.

I don`t consider deafness and CEA to be good health for breeding from
The bloke who wanted to use Defa knew about him being deaf and still wanted to use him...


Nope, DMs, no doubt on that
You are considerably more well versed in genetics than I am, unquestionably, however when it comes to my own dogs, having them in front of me and knowing what I do about them directly and via other experts, I do know what they are
Incidentally, my new girl, [ T`Akaya ], white predominant BC x JRT is also deaf however her deafness is not genetic/hereditary, but has been confirmed as being inflicted, not deaf by birth.

Patch I can't comment on what others have said on the colour of these, I'm just going on what's before my eyes. And yes, that's not the same as seeing them in the flesh, but really I see nothing in the photos so far to give any indication of merle at all.

I hope you don't mind, I've linked to two of your photos





Both of these are absolutely typical of extreme white, black and whites, with normal size eyes. One has a bit of greying, but that's something altogether different. Extreme white is the major cause of deafness in Border Collies and many other breeds. There could also be presence of the 'split face gene' which also increases the chances of deafness as it takes away more pigment from the ear area.

With double merle (less so with single merle) there is typically loss of pigment in the skin, on nose and eye rims. I used this link in the last thread on to show this.

http://www.lethalwhites.com/doublemerle.html

It could be that these are what's known as 'cryptic melres' and there is a very small patch of merle somewhere but really that's unusual, especially for both. Please, please try taking a photo of the merle bit again and I'll be happy to be proved wrong. I really would like to know if they are If not we'll have to get a DNA test done!

This has made me think that if DNA profiling became compulsory, puppy farmers wouldn't be able to include non existant Dams anyhow, because you can't DNA profile a dog that doesn't exist !! and they couldn't submit bloods from another dog, because that dog's blood would already be recorded and it would be a too perfect match to be a different dog. I'd like to see PFs get out of that one

Yes exactly. My last sentence re cloning dogs, was a bit daft really If the pups under suspicion were from a dam that had been over-bred, it would show up as a match for her, and the breeder would then be exposed.

There would be no need for chip ID at all in this scenario.

Cloning a chip is easy all they are is a programmed bit of technology, do you think all the microchips in the same make & model of computers are different ? Nope they are all the same. All you need is the software & the technical know how-or know someone who has. There was a spate of thefts of microchipped Triathlon bikes. One was also marked with smart water & when the police acting on information received checked all the bikes at a triathlon meet-guess what they found the bike & the origin chip had been removed & reoplaced with one identical to the triathlete's other bike & yes they are the same chips as are put in dogs. These bikes aren't cheap in the region now of £7.500 to over £15,000 !!!

Because of this ther are now sprayed by the manufacturers with smart water, even if they are repainted, disassembled & the parts used in making other bikes the smart water can still be detected !