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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 02:05 PM
owner hides behind a bush and uses a water spray to train the dog to stay away from the vegetable patch- This is a method/product now deemed unacceptable however used correctly it is a good training tool, harmless to the dog and very effective.
This sort of thing resulted in me being bitten by my last dog and it didn't stop the behaviour. And my cousins dog LOVES being sprayed in the face with water so I seriously doubt it would work with her.

I've boundary trained my dog without the need to spray him. I've trained him to walk nicely on leash without allowing myself to be dragged around and without jerking on his leash or shouting. Nor did I use treats as he's not interested in them while out. He's learned not to jump all over people, not to bark inappropriately, not to toilet in the house, not to grab peoples arms and swing off them and countless other things. All without being yanked around, yelled at, sprayed, kicked and without the use of loud sounds to startle/frighten him.

I'll use an "ah!" or clap my hands to interrupt a behaviour I don't like (a hand clap to Rupert is an "I want your attention" cue) and I will withdraw attention/leave the room, whichever is more appropriate, if necessary but they very rarely are.
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
...
So can I ask, You and Wys who seem to want to use no a-ha's or anything else negative......

You notice your puppy chewing through an electrical cable, what do you do?
Whoa no, hang on to your horses there
I never said "never".

What you describe is an EMERGENCY and if a puppy it presumably has not yet learnt "Leave it" so you do whatever it takes. Hopefullyremembering that some pups can be stubborn with giving things up, so tug of war might not be the best idea

I have to go have a very late lunch but hope to be back later. Just had to put that right first

Wys
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Oh dear, this sounds like Cesar Millan mark 2
We have all heard the euphemisms for yanking, pushing, poking etc like 'getting
the dogs attention'....
This is exactly my point!

As soon as people refer to a "physical correction" its automatically percieved as negative?

"Getting a dogs attention" is no more a euphenism for hitting a dog than "guiding a dog by the lead" is for Yanking.

If I grabbed you by the arm to stop you running into the road, would I be abusing you?

If you couldn't hear me call, would you be offended if I tapped you on the shoulder?

Both are Physical...Nethier are forceful or given with intent to harm
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 02:44 PM
Aversion techniques when adminstered properly should not be associated with the owner...Therefore I cannot understand why an owner should get bitten? i.e in my scenerio it was the vegetable plot that sprayed the dog not the owner!

"Lotsadogs" obviously got the balance just right with her dogs and the rubbish bin, Not overly forceful with her "Hey you!" but enough for the dog to understand and to learn -Even when the owner was not around.
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sarah1983
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27-07-2011, 02:56 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
Aversion techniques when adminstered properly should not be associated with the owner...Therefore I cannot understand why an owner should get bitten? i.e in my scenerio it was the vegetable plot that sprayed the dog not the owner!

"Lotsadogs" obviously got it right with her dogs and the rubbish bin!
Dogs aren't stupid and I seriously doubt Denises dogs have thought the bin is shouting "Hey you!" at them in her voice when she's standing right there. And unless you set something up so that the dog is sprayed remotely when it goes near the vegetable patch then how will it not know that it's the person who's sprayed it with water?
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Meg
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27-07-2011, 03:02 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc
This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.
WT, am I missing something here In order to yank/push/poke your dog to get its attention you need to be standing fairly close to it.
So tell me then how do you get your dog's attention when you are not standing close to it and why don't you use this method to get the dogs attention all the time
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waggytail
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27-07-2011, 03:04 PM
Sorry my last post was a bit confusing

I was making two seperate points...

Lotsadogs used a verbal correction, not aversion. What I meant was that she got the right balance to be effective (post now edited!)

Re: the water sprayer...Yes you are correct, the best way is always to set it up remotely e.g use a hose and apply from a tap out of sight. hiding is good also, the trick is always to convince the dog "it was nothing to do with me!"
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:09 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
This is exactly my point!

As soon as people refer to a "physical correction" its automatically percieved as negative?
Am a bit behind in the thread, but wanted to add that I do see it as a negative, because "correction" is usually a punishment, and in fact this very word is one of my bugbears as I prefer to call a spade a spade - let's say "punishment" and not call it "correction".

I used to physically "correct dogs". I don't do it any more.

Why?

Because I look back on what I did with horror, know I was unfair to the dogs, and hated dog training! I believed it was the only way, no-one told us there were any other methods. It was all Babs Woodhouse.

Now I never use physical corrections and love dog training, am proud of what I do, and enjoy sharing with others how to get the best out of their dog...

Both are Physical...Nethier are forceful or given with intent to harm
As someone who used to do it, I can say that you do start to use harder corrections and "make" the dog obey...

Wys
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JoedeeUK
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27-07-2011, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by waggytail View Post
A quick word on "physical corrections".... yanking, pushing, poking etc

This should always be a method for "getting the dogs attention" NEVER to hurt the dog.

I always liken this to getting a persons attention in a noisy or crowded place: the dog is distracted or he is faced with a strong impulse/temptation, therefore You have to be "punchy" enough to cut through this. The correct technique should put a dog "off balance" rather than to push him over or drag him along.

Equally as important..As soon as the dog responds to you, keep them with you using high value praise/rewards.

It often makes me wonder but people seem perfectly happy to see a dog pulling its owner down the street, straining on the lead, choking and spluttering. but if they see the owner jerk the dog so much as once they would say this was being cruel?
So you condone jerking, yanking, poking etc ??? & still call yourself a"Behaviourist"?

I don't like to see anyone's dog(s)pulling, which is why I push the training of dogs at home off lead before they ever hit the streets, trouble is most pet owners expect the dog to walk on the lead naturally without any sort of training, then have to resort head collars & physical"correction"
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Wysiwyg
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27-07-2011, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
.....

I really dont see the media as being too reward biased - really there has been so much punishemnt and alpha stuff in the media for so long that it is going to take a very long time for the GP to realise there is an alternative
....
I think that's true in general, Ben. The dog magazines are "balanced" for want of a better word overall, and the TV tends to lean towards punishment... quick fixes... and so on.

One thing I think should be pushed in every training thing - positive or negative - it Ian Dunbars thing about teaching english as a 2nd laungage
People just dont realise that their dogs cant speak English
Very true!
The light came on when she realised her dog had no idea what the word ment and was getting stressed with angry voice and creeping towards her for a hug
I've seen this quite often, I think as prlmates we tend towards aggression and often our emotions kick in when we should be thinking and asking questions of ourselves...

Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
....

Sadly the so called "balanced"approach requires the use of corrective punishment(mental or physical)using the misguided belief that in a domestic "dog pack"there needs to a a leader(AKA Alpha), ....
I've only seen "balanced" spoken about by US trainers, usually shock collar trainers who are trying to make their method sound nicer and more acceptable, but I am also starting to see it over here, and I agree it tends to be an argument for using punishment (and it's often physical).

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