Hi Dawn I guess it's down to how one perceives something then , 'waving or drowning' as they say.

Yes Mini, I agree.

I haven't read all of this as I don't have the patience to read 40 pages worth.

However, I despise this TV program. I am sure that Cesar as a person is a really nice guy, but I cannot stand his 'training' methods. Old fashioned, out-dated nonsence that should have been dead and buried in the Barbara Woodhouse era.

The main thing that people forget when taking this man for gospel is that it is A TV SHOW. Meaning that it is HIGHLY edited to make it look like he is working magic. He as a person also makes it very watchable - he has a great story (poor kid from Mexico), is good looking (according to some ), is very confident and is sure of himself. The kind of stuff that Hollywood TV producers dream of. The content of the programs is also designed to be 'shocking' - the worse behaved the dog, the more miraculous it looks when it is 'cured'.

Some of the messages of the program are not bad. I actually do like that he emphasises exercise. Amazingly, some of the moronic owners on the program wonder why their dog is behaving poorly when they walk it once per week. I noticed that some of the dogs on the episodes I have watched only ever get let out into the back garden a couple of times a day to "exercise". That boredom and frustration is likely to elicit behavioural problems in ANY dog of any breed/age. So, if the program does encourage those that do not walk their dogs to exercise them, then that is one positive outcome.

But the "training" is just awful. The dogs he works with have not miraculously overcome their aggression or issues, nor are they displaying "calm submission". They have been bullied into submission and have shut down. It is called learned helpnessless.

These techniques are based on wolf pack theories. The wolf pack theories were intially based upon studies of captive wolves and as domestic dogs are not wolves, they bear very little relevance to the behaviour of domestic dogs.

sarah, if the ball is the top prize then thats great
you wouldnt expect a leave it to work right away for that
its like anything, you build up to it
people round here put out lots of food and one day ben found a whole roast chicken
the tiny training treats in my hand would have been nothing to that
but because i had taught the trick building up from leaving less important things he found obaying the command and working with me a bigger reward
if the command isnt fully taught and the dog has a really great prize then there is a couple of choices
is it that important? wht get in a fight over a ball, leave her with it and go and do something more interesting with bryan, bet she comes running
or, if its safe with that dog
get a chair, hold the collar and sit and calmly wait saying and doing nothing till the dog droos the ball, then reward, tell them how good they are and give the ball back and try again

i believe anything can be taught using positive methods, the only limit is imagination

I know I said I was leaving this thread, but just wanted to reply to BenMcF.

She won't let go of anything she doesn't want to. She's a big dog and has strong staffy jaws. I couldn't force her to let go of anything.

I have however taken a large piece of raw beef heart from her mouth by being calm and assertive. I believed that I was going to take it from her and she gave it up to me just like that.

With toys, yse I do what you said. I ignore her or wait until she drops it voluntarily. I wouldn't and never have gotten into a 'fight' with her over it because then I would not be being calm and assertive

sarah, cool, i didnt mean that i thought you were actually fighting the dog, just a battle of wills
just showing that positive isnt all about just doing swaps or something, there are many different ways you can do it
agreed fighting isnt calm assertive, neither is 1/2 the things i see cm doing on tv

This is the sort of training that was used to train some dogs and other animals in the war when human lives depended on them... not saying I necessarily agree with animals being used in that way, but it was chosen as being the most effective method of training by the government advisors/trainers etc.

I'm miles behind on this sorry ( dont get on here too often now due to studying commitments - I have to be strong! ) but it works with really problematic dogs - for instance, the Michael Vick fighting dogs, who are being rehabbed at the centre in Idaho via reward methods .

My take on the dog Shadow is that he was most probably not socialised by his previous owners (ie he was let down by them.... ) and then trained using most probably harsher methods or equipment, such as prong collar which was mentioned the current owners were using, and which CM did I believe take off (good for him at that stage) as he recognised it was making matters worse (I didn't see it, but am going on what someone posted).

He was showing aggression to the owners, but IMO it was likely fear and anxiety based - most likely as he associated other dogs with pain of prong collar etc. I know of one dog who was aggressive, (no, two actually ) and once the prong collar was removed they improved pretty fast, with correct behaviour modification and training.

He wasn't trying to hurt CM much - my goodness, if a dog like him wanted to hurt seriously, CM would be in hospital by now. IMO in the situation the bites were fairly inhibited form what i saw.

If a dog has not been socialised and experiences pain and punishment (even if his own lunging caused the pain) when other dogs are around, he may become far more aggressive and possibly "come back up the lead" which is what Shadow was doing.

When harsher traditional methods based on military handling were used to train dogs, dogs and trainers fought in this way, and it was more or less expected. It is what happens when dogs are used harshly around the neck area and suspect their owners may be part of the problem. They defend themselves in the one way they can - fight - as the flight option has been taken away (ie they are on a lead) and get into that habit.

I suspect there are also other elements (eg redirected aggression, learned behaviour, etc) but overall I suspect this dog was far more anxious than "angry" but that it was using the only way it knew to avoid, control and help itself in its situation.


Not saying of course that the dog was behaving appropriately or anything else.... clearly it was a big problem.... I would love to know which reputable trainers and behaviourists they'd been to before, (if they had been to anyone????) and if so, what they were advised and if they followed the given programme and training advice. Hmm....

Wys
x