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View Poll Results: What is the better product?
Headcollar 12 48.00%
Harness 4 16.00%
Other 9 36.00%
Voters: 25. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 01:59 PM
I don't do myself 'any favours' from what I don't say, let alone what I do say

So without further ado, I'll adopt the DILLIGAF approach, good old Kevin 'Bloody' Wilson, eh?

Anyway, to make another Gordon Brown-esque U-turn, let's get back on topic shall we?

Leanne, let us know how you get on with training your locomotive dog to stop pulling
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Fliggle
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07-06-2008, 03:36 PM
I think other because training them to walk to heel properly is always the best method in my book.

Heidi
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by Fliggle View Post
I think other because training them to walk to heel properly is always the best method in my book.

Heidi
Exactly the same as my reasoning for choosing 'other'. Halti heads and harnesses simply just deter the dog from doing what it wants to do. Solving the problem as to why he is pulling and teaching him not to pull through positive reinforcement along with heelwork, is ultimately the best way.

As I said in another post, it's like a psychologist prescribing prozac to a patient with depression. It masks the problem, it doesn't stop it.

A halti head/harness is the prozac to the dog's pulling.
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**Leanne**
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07-06-2008, 06:46 PM
Sorry I took so long to reply have been busy with family issues.

Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Hi Leanne as the rest of us don't know what method was suggested to you in the PM you received it is a little difficult to say which lead and collar would be appropriate to use with the method .
Had the advice been posted on the forum we could have all shared it and offered our own experiences and suggestions (which is why we have forums).
Why don't you try the advice and see if it works .
Minihaha I asked Steve's advise via PM regarding Shadows pulling as I was told that the halti we got would help control him (by our trainer). Steve advised me to work with Shadow by when he began pulling to put him in the sit position then try to work him to heel, then repeat once he started again and to treat him once he was walking to heel. I was not advised to work him to heel as many members have said in their posts, and we haven't really covered any heel work in our training classes, so I feel doing heel work is important. I feel the plain harness we have gives him far more power to pull and my OH hates the headcollar as he feels he's to restricted.

I haven't really looked into clicker training but I think I might also look into it!

Thank you for your views/ideas given me loads to think about!!
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Patch
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07-06-2008, 08:13 PM
Originally Posted by Steve Wishart View Post
Exactly the same as my reasoning for choosing 'other'. Halti heads and harnesses simply just deter the dog from doing what it wants to do. Solving the problem as to why he is pulling and teaching him not to pull through positive reinforcement along with heelwork, is ultimately the best way.

As I said in another post, it's like a psychologist prescribing prozac to a patient with depression. It masks the problem, it doesn't stop it.

A halti head/harness is the prozac to the dog's pulling.

You don`t understand the principle behind harnesses at all Steve, that is more than obvious, so perhaps you should find out how they actually work before you give out such an uneducated response about them

A harness does not mask anything they are the least invasive tool to use because the dog feels less restricted, has therefore less to fight than on collar or head collar, so can actually concentrate on learning instead of struggling and won`t be injured through neck jarring while they are still pulling / lunging until they have learned what they are being asked to do.
**Again, correct fit and correct type for the dog is all important for any harness to achieve its potential for helping the dog

Try to remember Steve, a lot of people here have rescue dogs which were never taught heelwork but were often inadvertently taught to pull, or kennel stressed, or so badly treated on lead that they have all sorts of associated behaviours and often have physical damage meaning a collar or head collar are no no`s - something which should always be taken into account before dismissing something which could mean the difference between a dog learning easily or dying from a collapsed trachea because one last pull pressure on the throat caused existing scarring to give way altogether.
Steve, its not a good idea to `advise` people on something you don`t actually know anything about

And if you want to consider me to be pedantic about it, when I see someone saying something as sweeping and inaccurate as though it were fact when they don`t actually know what they are talking out and that can have repercussions to a dog, then heck yes, I`ll be as pedantic as it takes to stop misinformation being thrown about.

For goodness sake, give your ego a rest Steve, this forum is about dogs, not you you you.
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Hevvur
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07-06-2008, 09:06 PM
Personally, I think each dog is different.
Wearing a flat collar, check chain, half check etc is no good for Teagan.
Neither is wearing a harness. When my 8 stone dog wants to lunge at another dog on a harness, she has her WHOLE body weight pulling me.

Haltis worked, but rode up into her eyes as she has a short nose.
We got a dogmatic, and it's wonderful.
It doesn't rub, doesn't causer Teagan any discomfort, she walks nicely, and I can control her when she lunges!
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
You don`t understand the principle behind harnesses at all Steve, that is more than obvious, so perhaps you should find out how they actually work before you give out such an uneducated response about them

A harness does not mask anything they are the least invasive tool to use because the dog feels less restricted, has therefore less to fight than on collar or head collar, so can actually concentrate on learning instead of struggling and won`t be injured through neck jarring while they are still pulling / lunging until they have learned what they are being asked to do.
**Again, correct fit and correct type for the dog is all important for any harness to achieve its potential for helping the dog

Try to remember Steve, a lot of people here have rescue dogs which were never taught heelwork but were often inadvertently taught to pull, or kennel stressed, or so badly treated on lead that they have all sorts of associated behaviours and often have physical damage meaning a collar or head collar are no no`s - something which should always be taken into account before dismissing something which could mean the difference between a dog learning easily or dying from a collapsed trachea because one last pull pressure on the throat caused existing scarring to give way altogether.
Steve, its not a good idea to `advise` people on something you don`t actually know anything about

And if you want to consider me to be pedantic about it, when I see someone saying something as sweeping and inaccurate as though it were fact when they don`t actually know what they are talking out and that can have repercussions to a dog, then heck yes, I`ll be as pedantic as it takes to stop misinformation being thrown about.

For goodness sake, give your ego a rest Steve, this forum is about dogs, not you you you.
My ego? I'm not the one wandering into every thread telling people that they are wrong.

Think about it, cos you seem like you have some problems with your own ego.
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**Leanne**
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07-06-2008, 10:19 PM
I started the thread to gauge the views of others members on the site. I did not think this thread would turn into a clash against who has the bigger ego or personal attacks!
Whereas most members have given their views and why it's worked for them, which I am grateful for, some others have given me conflicting views on how to train him and I'm now even more confuzzled, and tbh I wish I hadn't started this thread and feel I should maybe think before I ask for anymore advice, as in other threads I've read it ends up in a fight against who's right! I know all dog's are different and should be treated differently and hence why we have tried a few different methods and now he's just as bad as he was 6 weeks ago, I know it will take time to get rid of all the bad habits/problems Shadow has due to his previous owners letting him do whatever he wanted or choose to ignore the behaviour, I mean when we got him @ 17 weeks old he wasn't even house trained!! Now I have a genuine problem with him and all I wanted was for people to tell me their opinions not to start a war!!
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Steve Wishart
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07-06-2008, 10:42 PM
My apologies Leanne, I was out of order to post that.

I hope you're able to find a solution for your dog to stop pulling, it won't hurt to use all methods if one works better than the other

Sorry again mate.
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Malady
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07-06-2008, 10:43 PM
Originally Posted by **Leanne** View Post
I started the thread to gauge the views of others members on the site. I did not think this thread would turn into a clash against who has the bigger ego or personal attacks!
Whereas most members have given their views and why it's worked for them, which I am grateful for, some others have given me conflicting views on how to train him and I'm now even more confuzzled, and tbh I wish I hadn't started this thread and feel I should maybe think before I ask for anymore advice, as in other threads I've read it ends up in a fight against who's right! I know all dog's are different and should be treated differently and hence why we have tried a few different methods and now he's just as bad as he was 6 weeks ago, I know it will take time to get rid of all the bad habits/problems Shadow has due to his previous owners letting him do whatever he wanted or choose to ignore the behaviour, I mean when we got him @ 17 weeks old he wasn't even house trained!! Now I have a genuine problem with him and all I wanted was for people to tell me their opinions not to start a war!!
Leanne

You have to do what suits your dog. Considering the mix in his make-up, I would not personally recommend a harness.

A Halti, like many have said is often used as a tool just to mask a problem, instead of dealing with it, and doesn't actually solve anything, it's just restricting enough, that you wont have your arms pulled out

Having said that, I have dogs that 'are' trained to heel, and are shown, so they 'do' know how to behave, but often on a walk, the temptation for my bitch to be lead dog is just too much and so I DO use a halti on her sometimes.

So I think the best you can do is continue attending a local class somewhere, and work on the reward based training to get him to walk to heel. Maybe incorporate some fun with it of course, as you have a high energy, easily bored dog, so play games that will make him appreciate you more and make him 'want' to stay with you and be around you, instead of rushing ahead to whatever he 'thinks' is elsewhere
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