Is This Fear Aggression

As some of you may know, Jack has an aggression proplem towards other dogs, there are only a couple of dogs he's ok with, we've been trying hard to get this sorted since we got him, and have noticed it's only when dogs get in his face, so to speak.

We thought we'd made real progress with him at our Agility Christmas party, as he only had a little grumble and didn't need his muzzle, so we were really pleased and thought we'd made huge progress.

Well last night was our Obedience club Christmas Party, we haven't been to Obedience for a while as it Christophers College night but we were still invited, and boy what a difference, from the start he was growling and snapping at the other dogs, we ended up having to sit to one side with him and even then it got crowded with people and dogs, (he's absolutly fine with people) and even though he was muzzled and snarling and snapping, there were dogs coming up close to him, Christopher said he could feel Jack shaking up the lead, I put my hand on his chest and he was shaking like a leaf, poor chap was terrified, I nearly cried then, and it's everything I can do to stop crying about it now, what did we put him through last night, I feel awful about it . When the team games started Christopher said he'd try and join in, see how he was, and apart from having a grumble at a puppy who tried to climb over his face, as puppys do (he was still muzzled) he was ok and seemed to enjoy himself, but we left soon after that

So my question is, is this fear aggression, what do you think, if so anyone got any ideas on how we can help him, I've had many dogs over the years with problems, but never one like this.

Thank you

Christine

It does sound as if it is fear that he suffers from if he's shaking. It probably was a bit too much for him all these dogs in quite a small enclosed environment and if he was on the lead he would feel he had no means of escaping hence the growling and snapping telling them all to go away. Sam gets grumpy at other dogs if they come too close as well, even off lead, mostly other males. Sorry don't have any answers for you but I'm sure some advice will be forthcoming esp from other BC owners. Don't feel bad about it though...you thought he would like it but he surprised you. They're good at that!!

I agree, but perhaps more that it was probably a bit overwhelming for him with the atmosphere of a party and in an enclosed space - don`t feel bad though as you did`nt go there determined to join in regardless of how Jack might have felt, you did`nt know he would be so atmosphere-sensitive !

The same happened with my Fluke when I took him to an agility competition for the first time soon after I adopted him. It was a bit of an over-load to him and while I was surprised that he was so reactive I can understand it but had I not taken him I would not have known he would find it so un-nerving - imagine if I`d just been training him in agility then turned up for a competition with him never having faced that atmosphere before - he would have been demented about it

Because I found out how stressy it was for him I have been ale to work on careful gentle desensitisation, including using an anxiety wrap for him, [ he actually became the agility warehouse photo model for the wraps` advert there ], so that he can acclimatise to very large gatherings of dogs and the high level of activity which goes with it.
It may be that he will be be a veteran before he feels comfortable enough to compete and thats fine by me, because if he ever does get to compete it will not be for the sake of that for me but testament to his character to be willing to trust me in us working on it together and thats how fear aggression should be worked on imo - as a team striving to overcome whatever place or atmosphere causes a dog to be unsettled, to build confidence for the sake of that dogs inner well-being.
Now that you know Jack lacks confidence in the setting of the hall, [ I`m assuming it was a hall ? ], you have the opportunity to piece together the elements which contributed to his discmfort, including :

the flooring - did he feel vulnerable if the floor was slippy in places
no escape - was he too `hemmed in` because of too many dogs between him and a comfort zone [ outside the door / entrance ]
Or was he too near the door and felt there was a stream of dogs, [ to his perception ], which would naturally look toward him when coming in, and in his mind any one of them may have had negative intent
volume of dogs - literally so many dogs he felt the need to try to watch in case any of them might have a go at in [ in his perception ], in a closed space, lots of dogs milling around, if feeling vulnerable he could have felt unable to cope with trying to keep an eye on all of them all of the time just in case`, and may have felt isolated `against the world`
sound magnification - the noise bouncing around indoors of presumably many barky dogs and human voices / laughter / excited tones, [ especially if there were party games too ], for some dogs it can be such a cacophony to their hearing, that alone could create fear where there might usually be none on a `normal` training night which would be calmer and would have nowhere near as much going on

Yes, thousands of dogs are perfectly fine about any or all of those things, but for those which are`nt so comfortable it can be very difficult for them.

But had you not gone and not seen his reaction to that atmosphere, you would not have gained the opportunity to identify what to work on to help him

Whether it was any of the above individually or in combination, or anything else you will be able to piece together when sitting down and considering how he reacted at particular times to specific stimuli - that might sound like an impossible task but believe me you and Chris are in tune with him, you will be able to sift through the evening to pinpoint some `trigger moments` - trust your instincts

It may be that taking him to the venue when empty of other dogs, then gradually building up with one, then two, then three etc of the dogs which can be trusted to be laid back toward him, could be what will get him through this - perhaps the trainer might be happy for you to go to class nights early before other dogs are expected to arrive so you can take him in, do a little basic obedience and rewarding in complete relaxation then out again, until ready to arrange for a trusted dog to arrive a few minutes in to you doing this, and so on, [ it would depend on how helpful the trainer is and how soon he or she arrives at the venue to prepare before students start arriving ].
Doing something like that would give Jack the opportunity to change his perception of `the place` and what happens inside, to make it more positive for him, and even hopefully get him to the point where the arrival of other dogs is a trigger to fun brain-work through which instead of feeling like its `him against the world`, it can become his family unit having a good time as `part` of that world, which can in turn translate to other venues and other situations

A superb answer. Lots to be looking at ther. Patch can you pm me details about the anxiety wrap?

Thanks Patch, that's brilliant, I'd also like details of this anxiety wrap

For quite a while we've noticed that Jack's far more likely to become aggressive when in a small space or when crowded and thought he may suffer from claustrophobia (sp), the hall is very much smaller than the riding school we use, I would think you could fit at least 4 of them in there, the floor, for Jack is quite slippery, when they have to do a retrieve his feet are going at about 90 miles an hour, but he's getting know where.

Not sure about the door side of it, he started as soon as we opened the door and walked in, then we sat well away from the door, he may well have felt hemmed in, it was very crowded, the only time he didn't grumble at another dog, was when a small poodle backed up onto his nose, then he just had a sniff it is the one place he got into a fight though, there was another aggressive dog there who he'd had words with, infact at one time the other dog had taken a chunk out of Chris's jeans trying to get to Jack, they were in a down stay, several dogs apart, and the other dog, got up and went up to the dog next to Jack, whether Jack though he was going up to him or not I don't know, but they ended up in a fight and Both Chris and the other dogs owner ended up getting bitten, it wasn't an attack on them, they just happened to get in the way, which is now the reason he is now muzzled in a crowd, the other owner was fine about it, but Jack is still very wary of the other dog, even at agility, we have to make sure they're not running at the same time (2 different classes, same school) we jsut don't now what either of them would do, and would rather er on the side of caution.

I don't think going to the hall early is an option, Jacks class starts at 8.30 pm and they have 3 or 4 good citizen classes before hand along with a puppy class, I have wondered if we should try and find another class as nothing has been done to help Jack, other than keep him away from the other dogs, I guess there must be a club out there whos willing to help, those in our group are brilliant , but it always anoys me when you get those who say 'we don't need that sort of dog here' and look down their nose at us

At least now we know what the problem is and can work at helping him, he trust us completly, I know it's going to be a long road for us, but I feel as if we're partially there now

Mind you it didn't help this morning on the phone to my mother who very helpfully sugested we either put him back into rescue or have him pts as he is a dangerous dog like either of those is going to happen, I wish I'd never told her

At one stage only for about 2 minutes, Jack was tethered to a radiator (the big old fashioned ones, that a cart horse would have trouble shifting) and he was only a couple of yard from the nearest dog, and he didn't bat an eyelid, he just laid down quietly.

Christine

The anxiety wrap - I thought rather than pm if I give a link here maybe it could be useful to others as well

Its based on T-Touch, it fits like a second skin to give a feeling to the dog of being cuddled but without the accidental human reinforcement of `coddling` - its worth trying a t-shirt first, [ close fitting or it does`nt really help, its the close touch all over which the wrap is made for ], and you can see some reviews of it too if that helps [ one is mine about the effect it had on Fluke ]

The Wrap : http://www.agilitywarehouse.com/prod...il.cfm?id=1277

The reviews : http://www.agilitynet.com/reviews/an...ialpowman.html

Hope that helps

Was reading your post with great interest, the replies are fab......but I've always owned BC's...over 30 years and quite frankly all of my BC's have never much liked enclosed/small places. I truly believe this is the nature of the dog and that small/enclosed places makes then feel -as you yourseld said- clausrophobic, also I find that both my BC's react in small/enclosed spaces once on a lead, I can only assumme being a dog of high intellengence they are aware that they are restricted when in situations that "come in on them". Both my BC's work well in open spaces and free, well if you take the type of dog that is how they work best...out in fields, free. I think that it is definately fear aggression and that the two things....small/enclosed space plus a lead....made him fearful. Glad that you've had plenty of brilliant replies....with me I just don't put mine into that position as Reah reacts the worst and trys to find the smallest hidy hole that she can to sit and tremble in. Good luck

This is Max all over!

During normal training class, providing there are not loads of dogs there, he is fine. The more dogs there are, the more agitated he gets, the more he snarls at them etc.

I took him and Murphy to the Christmas Party, and after 10 minutes Max was back in the car, as there were over 40 dogs and owners in the hall, people in fancy dress, music, games, food! What a nightmare!

Now I know not to just dump him in that kind of situation. I now realise how many dogs he can "handle" in that sort of space, and, as has been said above, can work on de-sensitising him to the whole "millions of dogs" scenario

Don't worry, you're not alone

Thanks Patch. the reviews were helpful and the models gorgeous. . I shall be fetching a tape measure shortly and ordering one for Fudge.

Just imagine if we had pics of Fudge and Fluke together showing off their Wraps - the likes of Posh and Becks would be green with envy at being easily outshone for sure