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borzoimom
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Location: Virginia
Joined: May 2007
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23-05-2007, 02:37 AM
I am not a great Ceasar fan- some methods I flat out disagree with- one of them is the "flooding" method- where you take what the dog is afraid of and force it- I have seen in real life this backfire as much as help.
However- some of the situations, the owner has allowed things to progress way too far. Especially with working types that havent had enough exercise etc. Granted- we really do not know how long he worked with the dog- but it is rather sad that with even just a few weeks of training- the dog has a better life and the peopel as well.
I do find him chovanisitic a bit.. But - what the hey- sometimes he is right. Woman need to step up to the plate too.. I am a licensed certified trainer- and when I use to show up for classes I taught and all it had was my first initial and my last name- in Sch.. classes- I use to get some looks too.. lol. I am 5'6 120 pounds but I know how to handle a dog in this physical sport.. Not to be rude- but if he talked to me the way I have seen him talk to some of the woman on the show, I would take him out.. lol.. Then again- I would have no reason to call him either.. lol. I never asked my husband how to handle the kids, and sure as you know what would do the same with one of the dogs- its dealt with and stopped. It never progresses to the stages I have seen some of the situations by the time they call someone..
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Patch
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23-05-2007, 02:54 AM
Originally Posted by Ceph View Post
harnesses promote pulling from a lot of dogs
No, they don`t. Sweeping statements like that give completely the wrong impression of something which is the safest and most comfortable, [ therefore not confrontational ], thing to help a dog not feel the need to pull.

I have a great deal of experience of `difficult` dogs [ huge understatement ], some easily in the upper range of `difficulty` of those Milan gets his hands on, including dogs with severe human fear-aggression issues.
I have never `needed` to resort to Milans alpha schmalpha `quick fix`, [ and quick to break again....], force methods and the day I `have` to is the day I throw in the towel for not being good enough to properly help a dog with fairness, kindness, positive motivation, and a *real* understanding of what makes different dogs tick on an individual basis to help them.
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Ceph
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23-05-2007, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
No, they don`t. Sweeping statements like that give completely the wrong impression of something which is the safest and most comfortable, [ therefore not confrontational ], thing to help a dog not feel the need to pull.

I have a great deal of experience of `difficult` dogs [ huge understatement ], some easily in the upper range of `difficulty` of those Milan gets his hands on, including dogs with severe human fear-aggression issues.
I have never `needed` to resort to Milans alpha schmalpha `quick fix`, [ and quick to break again....], force methods and the day I `have` to is the day I throw in the towel for not being good enough to properly help a dog with fairness, kindness, positive motivation, and a *real* understanding of what makes different dogs tick on an individual basis to help them.
Sorry...should have changed that to in my experience they have increased pulling..as well as in the experience of my mentor-trainer who has been training a loooong time....I know when I stick a harness on our Husky mutt he takes off with me waving in the wind behind him....but we've worked him pretty well with the flat collar. But thats what he has been bred to do - distribute the weight and run...its one aspect of the husky side of his nature.

Sorry if I offended...but my broad statement was mostly in regards to what I have learned using my own two hands and listening to alot of other trainers.

~Cate
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DanishPastry
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23-05-2007, 05:32 AM
Originally Posted by dougiepit View Post
some breeds just need that little bit more dominant owners, this must be combined with a good ability to watch your dogs interact and see problems coming before the blow up.
I don't believe you are right about having to be more dominant with some dogs, but I would agree to the word confident instead. I think people confuse the two a lot, thinking to show confidence you have to very hands on and assert yourself a lot. (not saying that that is what you do, just an observation I have made through the years).
I also VERY MUCH agree that the ability to actually watch your dogs, see what they are up to, is a key to them living together in harmony. We have had to do a lot of that here, when my fiancée moved in and we were suddenly a 3 bitch household (well 6, including me and the cats ), as one of my dogs is not overly keen on other bitches in general, and especially not in your face gobby ones like he brought over lol..
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Shona
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23-05-2007, 01:10 PM
Originally Posted by DanishPastry View Post
I don't believe you are right about having to be more dominant with some dogs, but I would agree to the word confident instead. I think people confuse the two a lot, thinking to show confidence you have to very hands on and assert yourself a lot. (not saying that that is what you do, just an observation I have made through the years).
I also VERY MUCH agree that the ability to actually watch your dogs, see what they are up to, is a key to them living together in harmony. We have had to do a lot of that here, when my fiancée moved in and we were suddenly a 3 bitch household (well 6, including me and the cats ), as one of my dogs is not overly keen on other bitches in general, and especially not in your face gobby ones like he brought over lol..
yup I tend to agree, be it dominant, confidence, I know what you mean about the hands on thing too, I personaly dont feel the need and all my dogs are liberty trained, so no lead collar or harness nothing that way I know they are doing it on there own merrit, you cant trust a collar and lead to save you in a bad situation,,they do snap sometimes, I have came across so many people who dont know how to go about correcting there dog, some hit, some scream, some give lectures, the list goes on and on, but they dont seem to be able to correct the situation in a manner that the dog will understand, non constructive punishment I guess I would call it,
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shaunjane23
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23-05-2007, 03:06 PM
Why is it that whenever i see people showing dogs, Crufts for an example that they have collars or slipleads and i have even seen chokers round dogs necks right at the top of the neck under the ears, yet they always get suoorted by doggie people yet here people are saying how bad that method is for their dogs.
Just wondering
Shaun
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DanishPastry
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23-05-2007, 04:37 PM
Showdog owners who use chains/thin leads in the showring do it to make their dog look its best (in their opinion/culture) and not as a training tool. I think that is the main difference, as showdogs do not pull around acting up, so are not likely to injure themselves :smt001

(I still don't like the look of it, but that is my personal opinion)
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borzoimom
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23-05-2007, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by DanishPastry View Post
Showdog owners who use chains/thin leads in the showring do it to make their dog look its best (in their opinion/culture) and not as a training tool. I think that is the main difference, as showdogs do not pull around acting up, so are not likely to injure themselves :smt001

(I still don't like the look of it, but that is my personal opinion)
The purpose of a show collar in the ring is to be thin, to not distract from the dog, and easily removed to show the "lay back" ie shoulders from the neck as it fits the breed standard..
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DanishPastry
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23-05-2007, 06:44 PM
thank you for explaining it better than I could, Borzoimom :smt001
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Patch
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23-05-2007, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Ceph View Post
Sorry...should have changed that to in my experience they have increased pulling..as well as in the experience of my mentor-trainer who has been training a loooong time....I know when I stick a harness on our Husky mutt he takes off with me waving in the wind behind him....but we've worked him pretty well with the flat collar. But thats what he has been bred to do - distribute the weight and run...its one aspect of the husky side of his nature.

Sorry if I offended...but my broad statement was mostly in regards to what I have learned using my own two hands and listening to alot of other trainers.

~Cate
No offence taken, its just a particular special interest of mine
Different harnesses do different things, thats very important to consider. Some are made to encourage, [ tracking, sledding etc, ] some are just poorly designed, but the most basic style [ Trail harness ], is about the best there is because of the way it works through the design. If a dog still pulls and is uncontrollable in one of those the likelihood is nothing more than incorrect fitting which is easily tweaked and the handler not doing their bit [ making harness walking very pleasant through positive and fun interaction ].

I dont know how long your mentor trainer has been at it but to say the same as I said to someone yesterday who yanked his elderly dog off its feet in a choker :smt021 then defended himself by saying he`s had dogs for years and has`nt killed one with a choker yet, my response was "someone can drive a car for 50 years but it does`nt make them a good driver..."

FWIW I`ve been at it for 30 odd years but the same saying goes for me too of course, we all have more to learn.
That said, my experience of harness use in particular is very extensive because I`d like to see all dogs in harness rather than lead to collar or head collar, so I have tried out just about every type on the market.
When I put one on someones dog [ the type I favour personally, the Trail ], I do teach the owner some handling exercises as well which is what makes the difference :smt001
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