Good discussion, Azz

Oh dear, not sure how short I can be though, I may "do a Patch"

I used to use a lot more force than I do now - and trained dogs with choke chains and a "do as I say" attitude. This was, really, as a teenager and I have to say, I was influenced by Barbara Woodhouse et al

I then got my own dogs, 2 very strong minded, reactive Tervs who never stopped, always on the go. I completely adored them and used, I suppose a "mostly reward" system - plenty of love and reward for the rignt thing, and always making sure they really understood, although I did use check chains for the first year. If they did something wrong ( so very rare because I put in tons of training) they just got a No, sometimes sharp, sometimes not depending.

Once they got to about 2, I honestly almost never had to say No again. I put this down to "relentless" training and always showing the dogs what I required in a language they understood, so lots of consistency.


I then really became interested in animal/canine behaviour and did several courses in it, including a new John Fisher one, Understanding the Canine/Human Interface, before more recently starting the degree course I am on. I now tend to follow what I'd call, I suppose, the "modern" view of training as it's based on the understanding of how dogs learn and related to "the science bit" as they say in the shampoo adverts!

My current dog is the most strong minded I've ever had - she has thrown me so many problems over the 6 years we've been together (she was the top pup in the litter). But they've all been overcome with clicker training, reward based training and my recently gained understanding of learning theory, and how to use this kindly and effectively, with effective being underlined.

I was able to stop my dog barking during working trials jumps in one session, (by session I mean literally one minute) and this was followed by one more. This to me is power, this is kind, this is how I love training. I'm passionate about it, and what we do really works for us

I love how people can make sweeping statements about pack theory being outdated when clearly ever reply before this has some form of pack structure in it.
Whether you choose to have your dog on your bed or on the sofa, eating with you walking behind you or anything else the fact is you are choosing this so therefore like a pack leader you are making the choices for your pack whether you like it or not.
I think its great that there are so many differnt theories and each person thinks theirs is the only one. A dog trainer or someone who has owned lots of dogs or differnt breeds im sure will agree that to close your mind to other methods of training or running your pack/family/mate or anything you wish to call your human dog unit is being some what narrow minded.
I have both working and pet dogs and watch them closely interacting with each other there is a power struggle at the moment between my old GSD and my 4 year old Malinois, I have a lab bitch who is clearly in the eyes of the other dogs the omega and a Parsons Russell who decides on a daily basis which side she is on. The one thing that is constant in this pack is that what I say goes, whether they see me as pack leader or not. Sorry for repeating the pack word I know some dont agree, but I do think that having some form of leadership in your group (didnt use the P word) makes for an easier life and a dog like any member of the family should know where in that group it should be

My dogs have been brought up the way I would have brought children up - with good manners!! That's all I ask of them really. As long as they do as they're told, when they're told, that's fine by me. I don't know whether they look on me as their boss, but rather they look to me for guidance in certain situations - they know right from wrong, they know what I don't like them doing etc. etc. They always barge out of the door before me in a race to get out, but that's fine with me also, it's a lot better than me getting knocked over in all the commotion. They eat before us, not after, and that way they won't get told off if they sit there staring at us whilst we eat - and they definitely know not to scrounge food of us at the table. I really don't understand that one about feeding them afterwards anyway? What's that all about then?? What is it teaching them? That I am the one who determines whether they eat or not and when? I would far rather have happy dogs, who know when each meal is coming and at what time irrespective of whether we've had ours or NOT quite honestly, it doesn't bother them, and that way they don't pester me for food when I'm preparing our meals, never!

It's all very well this strict training regime, and there is a definite need for my dogs to BE well trained because they're very big and powerful, but at the end of the day, they are part of our household and have to fit in with us and live by our rules, just like kids would have to do. How I get there, is basically a lot of mutual respect and a lot of love, I don't stick to rules that anyone else has made in the dog world I'm afraid!

I dont really subscribe to any theory just take bits and pieces from here and there and keep what works. My two sleep on the beds if they want to and they get fed at set times sometimes before we eat sometimes after.

They see me as being the boss as I do most for them like walks, grooming and feeding. Its me they come to if they hurt themselves etc. The only thing I ask of them is that they do what they are told when they are told Works well for us and we dont have any problems with dominance with them.

Out of interest, could you point out where I've outlined any pack structure? I didn't mention it. So not clear on what you read in mine, although others have mentioned it .




Wys
x

The pack theory is based on the 'top dog'. If this was true then theoretically dogs would cease to exist after all only the 'pack leaders' breed and that's you, the human. This does not happen because it doesn't really exist. They have discovered in wolf packs that different animals have different roles, some are top for breeding others are top for feeding and hunting etc.
Dogs arent wolves so they dont operate in the same manner, we've selectively bred them over many thousands of years to do specific tasks. They no longer need to have the roles or skills that they would do if in the wild.
It's about time we learnt to accept them as dogs and not some only ever so slightly removed from the wild type of animal. The sooner people do that the better their relationships with their dogs will be.
Becky

Well done, Helena. You said what I wanted to say but in a lot fewer words.

Ok you didnt ,but most others did .
Although your dogs must see you as some sort of leader of their life they do as they are told because you have taught them to whether it be with the check chain or with your clicker.
I think most people when they read about Alphas and pack leaders atomatically think of an agressive and dominant animal bullying the rest of the pack into doing as they are told. If this is the case then the war has already been lost .
A strong pack a happy pack (im off using the P word again)
is the one where there is no need for shouting or physical action , where the dogs as in your case are happy and content as a result of their leader giving them clear instructions backed up with positive rewards whether it be food or love and affection.
I supose I feel rightly or wrongly that we have dogs as companions, working colleagues and members of our family but whatever methods or views held we are the ones who make the decisions for the dogs in our care so surley that makes us in some form in charge or the leader of the dog

If your dog does something wrong who corrects it.


If you do something wrong who corrects you.

Bash on thinking that the pack doesnt exsist that doesnt mean its true, like all good debates there is more than one side to the argument.

Some figures to think about
75% of a dogs genetic make up come from their wild fore fathers , 15% comes from their domesticated ancestors and 10% from humans.

When a pup is born it it is no differnt to a wild dog it is only the intervention of its mother (domesticated) and humans that mould it into what we want.

I would have thought that last stat was illegal!