School of thought... what's yours?

OK.. there are loads of different opinions on this, but I think it would be interesting to hear what school of thought you sucbscribe to (in relation to bringing up/training dogs etc) and why.

Right now, I pretty much subscribe to pack hierarchy - that is I am the pack leader and everyone else is higher than the dog. I believe this is incredibly important for any large or bull-type breed... they really must not ever think they can 'bully' anyone else due to their sheer size and strength.

Mainly this is achieved by simple things like:

*Getting fed after everyone else

*Being asked to wait before being let through the door

*Not given attention on 'demand' but I decide when play time is and for how long.

*All toys not allways accesible, the best are kept out of reach and I decide when he can have them and when to put them out of sight/reach again.

*Hes not allowed on sofa or bed

**Plus much much more.

However, just because he's bottom of the pack doesn't mean he's treated like crap. I actually talk to and treat him like a baby otherwise All these things are done subtly, and he really doesn't know any different. And he's such a star I couldn't ask any more of him.

In relation to training, I prob scubscribe to positive reinforcement and sometimes clicker training - basically, I reward him (either praise or food) when he does something I want. With regards to undesired behaviours, it would depend on the behaviour, sometimes it's enough to ignore him, sometimes I need to walk in the opposite direction, sometimes if I need to stop him quickly I say no (volume depending on situation).

There's a lot to take in there Azz !

I bet this will be a popular thread as a lot of the points you've made have been discussed on an individual basis.

My Spaniel (Fingal) appears on a lot of threads relating to these issues so it's good to see them them all lumped together as (in my case) they can all be classed as 'dominant dog' issues.

Phil

Hmmmm, how to answer without it being my usual rambling long enough to cure insomnia type response...

I believe in bringing dogs up and training with them from the dogs point of view rather than my own.
As a species, we humans have vast resources available about dog behaviour and training techniques through the years.
Dogs dont have that, they can`t look on the net or call each other up to say, " my human is doing this or that behaviour, I`m having trouble training him or her, whats the best way to deal with it ? ".

Putting it as simply as I can, my approach is, ` if dogs could speak our language, what would they say about this or that situation / experience / technique ` etc.

Sadly dogs dont have the vocal ability to speak in a way we understand in that regard, and we in our supposedly `superior species` way have, in the main, not gained the ability nor the will to speak their vocal language, so I set human ego aside to let them guide me, I watch, listen and learn from them the way they try to communicate to me and adapt my responses to the ways they indicate they understand and are willing to work with.
In my experience, if a dog [ or human for that matter ! ] is *willing*, to learn and to work, because that learning or work has been made enjoyable for the dog, the results will always be more reliable than when taught in ways involving resentment, pain, fear or force.

As to why I go about things the way I do, quite simply its mutual respect, believing that sharing a dogs life time is a privelige not a right, and that if I want to enjoy having a dog with me, its up to me to make that dog feel happy, safe and secure with me in return.
Yes its necessery to have certain basic boundaries to fit in with us for safety and our ideas of what constitutes good manners, but dogs are not born knowing those things any more than a child is born knowing the world and its ways.
I don`t want the learning my dogs do throughout their lives with me to be reflected with unhappiness, fear, or mistrust when I look in their eyes.
I do want them doing things for and with me because it makes them happy to interact with me, and that does`nt happen without understanding, respecting, and *earning* the dogs heart, mind, and trust, as far as I`m concerned.

I am not my dogs` boss but they are not the boss of me either. There are things I can do for them which they cant do themselves and vice versa. So for me its teamwork, a partnership.
As the human, do I technically have ultimate say over their lives and everything they do ?
Sure.
But do I feel a need to lord that over them, or to make them feel or look inferior or of lesser importance in life than me ?
No.
Does it work for myself and my crew as a family unit ?
Yes, and then some

And did I manage to keep it as short a post as I initially intended ?
Nope, sorry about that

I agree with the pack thing as outlined by Azz, but don't tend to follow it to the letter. Jake seems to know his place when it counts though. I suppose there are breeds where you couldn't get away with my 'informal pack' school of thought though.

This thread could get interesting
I'd say my thoughts to training are very similar to what you have described. I do however feel it's important to teach my dogs whats wrong just as much as whats right. Distraction IMO is a temporary thing, it's like "this looks better for now I'll go back to that later" I prefer a sharp "NO" to undesired behaviour. If we watch dogs interacting together we see them growl at eachother for what they see as unsavoury behaviour, my "NO" replaces that. That said, I do go far more overboard with praise for good behaviour.

Rightly or wrongly my dogs are treated as if they were my children. They are allowed on the furniture and, over the years, I have always had one sleep on the bed with me. That is just my choice and I've been doing it for over 20 years now and have never had any temperament issues or atitude problems within such a large pack of mixed sex dogs. No doubt there will be people that strongly disagree with this but its worked for me and I have one of the happiest bunch of pets that I know of.

I often joke about them being naughty and they won't do what I ask them to do the minute I ask them, but I do know, in my heart, that should I need one to return to me immediately from the paddock, 9 times out of 10 it will happen. There must be a change in my voice from the usual call because sometimes I can call them in several times before they decide to obey. If they run off with something they shouldn't have, so long as it isn't going to hurt them, I may make a game of it. However, they do know the difference in my voice so that if I tell them to drop something they will, and it is instant.

People who visit often remark on the dogs good behaviour and find it hard to believe I have so many all together. Yes, they go mad when someone arrives but, once they have had a chance to say hello, even if it is just a head poked around a door, they will just settle down and carry on with what they were doing, this mania only usually lasts about a minute, if that.

Apart from the ringcraft training that mine receive, and the obedience that Bradley has just started, I'm not aware that I do any specific training with any of them. They all know to get into their beds if I ask them to, they all know to wait, leave etc., but I wouldn't say they will do it 100% of the time, probably 99% though.

I wouldn't say I'm lazy in not training them at all but, so long as they are well behaved and I can take them out visiting and they don't disgrace themselves, that is all I'm looking for out of my pets. I feel that I teach them what I want them to know, plus they learn other things from the older dogs, i.e. using the dog flap, where to go to the toilet etc.

As you all know, setters don't usually have agression problems and mine all know that I'm pack leader without me ever having to show it other than the fact that I feed them and love them which is enough for them. The pointers are just as gentle so the same goes for them.

I think that, depending on your breed, and what you want to achieve with your dog, training regimes will be so different. I'm certain that if I had a stronger, more willfull breed then I would have to change my training techniques accordingly.

Sorry if I've been waffling.

I don't subscribe to the pack theory at all but then I also don't believe that humans are superior to anything else that lives on this planet.
My dogs sleep on my bed and always have done, never been challenged yet. They are ad lib fed and can eat 24/7 if they want to, they go through doors first or last or whatever, personally it's easier for me to let them all go out first rather than trying to hold them all back so I can get through. They have access to the same parts of the house that I do and a flap so they can go in and out of the garden whenever they want. Basically I do all the things you 'shouldnt' do if you subsribe to the pack theory (this is now an outdated way of thinking)
I feel that people will just get stressed out if they are constantly trying to ensure that the dogs do everything last and that is what dogs can pick up on. They arent human, they are dogs and we should remember that, they also arent wolves, they've been domesticated for over 12,000 years and we have selected them for various traits so they wont behave like wolves no matter how hard we try because we have selected only part of a wolves behaviour for each breed.
Becky

I personally dont subscribe to any theory about "who's boss" etc. I do believe that our dogs should do as they are told, like our children. My dogs live on the sofa, sleep on my bed and eat when i feed them, I have never had a problem and dont intend changing the way I view dogs untill that time that I do.
Dawn.

I do the same as Dawn, and agree with what she says!