New dog in the pack - when is playing not playing???

Hi all

My partner and I are a bit divided about this one - we have a 5 month old bitch who we have introduced to our existing 18 month old and things have got a bit vocal!!!

There has been no true 'agression' as I would call it although sometimes the little one or vice versa will try and take something off the other and lots of chasing round the house will ensue with the older barking a lot and both of them 'mouthing' each other but NO biting - when things have got too vocal I have just gone in and said 'enough' (mainly to the older one) in a non-harsh manner and stood in front of him for a few seconds until they walk off in seperate directions

My partner feels that this is only a small step away from real agression ensuing whereas I am of the belief that I will seperate them for the sake of the neighbours (!) but am not concerned about this happening as I see it as two dogs testing the boundaries a little and chasing each other round the house

Can anyone help to clarify this? The only time the older dog has 'told the little one off' with what I recognise as a 'back off and I mean it' is when she tried to wade into his dinner, and I didn't interfere as, unless the dynamics change, we are treating him as higher up in the pack than her - all experiences greatly appreciated!

Even if there is agression. DO NOT INTERVENE!!!!
You only make things worse. What you're doing is the following. Yu are protecting the weaker one. He feels stronger but nothing has changed. Afterwards the stronger one will put the weaker one in his normal place=fighting; but he will be more violent. you intervene.... and you've a vicious circle. Let them fight it out. The numbre off dogs that can't live with other dogs are limited and they don't play.... they fight from day one and this do the death.

Greetings

Johan

I have to agree with Johan on this one too When I introduced my first ever rescue dog I already had one bitch, both the same breed gsd. Anyway, I watched the first incident after he had been in the house about half an hour, but she wouldn't let him out the back door. She put her head over his shoulders and growled at him, I didn't interfere at all, as I knew she was telling him she was the boss around here, within a few minutes he had backed down and he sloped off - she has been the boss ever since. They do play rough and very very vocal, and it can sound like they're having a go at each other, but you will know the difference I'm sure! She can take anything off him, but he could never take anything off her, but I think he knows that and he's never tried!

That's very interesting what you say Johan about dogs fighting from day 1 if they're not going to get on, I didn't know that - one for the notebook then! Is that true about fighting to the death too then in all cases?

There are a few types off dogfights

-Protecting the pack= serious issues and potential dangerous
-Play fight= relaxing and training for real life situations (hunting, protecting,...)
-Ranking fights= Deciding which dog is alfa/beta/...
-Simply agression

The first one can be rather violent and some blood may flow but with normal dogs they know how and when to stop

The second one is just fun and occassionaly there is a bite to hard that may result in a puncture wound but it isn't ment to be violent. (boys fooling around) (bitches fight harder and longer than males)

The 3th one is something that happens when you put a puppy with an older dog. When the pup gets older he will try to establish a high rank. It's a periode to go trough.

The last one is the worst. Pure and simple agression. I have only seen/had one dog like that. They go for the kill. Very confident alfadogs, Very hard to handle and in a normal situation they will probably be put down befor they mature due to the inherent danger they pose towards the family. On the other hand they are the best dogs to have at your side in times off trouble

Greetings

Johan

I agree with everyone. Intervening and especially favouring the new dog will build up frustration and make things worse, dogs are pretty good at sorting out their social order without any interference, as humans we tend to want to protect the weaker or defensless creatures but dogs dont play by our rules.....all that said though there are occasions where one dog might just go further and do some serious damage, its common in dogs that have been seperated from the mom and littermates too soon and havent had adequate canine socialization. I dont know if there are laws in UK about what age a pup can be given away or sold, in the US some counties are now making it illegal to give or sell them under 8 weeks, its common there to see 4 week old pups being sold from a box at the local market or sold to pet stores.

Ive had a lot of rescues through my house over the years as well as my own dogs and while there have been quite a few 'incidents' they are mostly sorted out with no real injuries other than the occasional bruise and 'hurt pride', there was one 'altercation' that went on for about 15 minutes between an Akita X and Pit Bull X, both up on the hind legs, front paws on each others shoulders and snarling nose to nose, very vocal.....theres no doubt in my mind that they would have probably killed each other at some point had I stepped in and seperated them but I waited it out (with hose at the ready) and eventually they just stopped with a little 'huffing' as they both walked away in opposite directions, the Akita (BJ) is a female, very dominant and was about 2 or 3 years old at the time and was definately the instigater and the Pit (Joey) a male, average subordinate and about 6 years old, he suddenly discovered he was in charge, he was the only male in the house.

I worked at an emergency hospital for a long time and the most common injuries we saw were dogs that had been torn up by other dogs, I dont have statisitcs but I will say just from talking to the clients that almost every incident that involved dogs from the same household, the owners had either tried to seperate them or had kept the dogs seperated after they had fought before and theyd intervened...sometimes dogs had been kept in the same yard but in different runs, or only one in the house at a time....and somehow they had managed to get together and the frustration in the dogs that had built up over time suddenly came to a head.

This is very interesting and very good to know. We would like to get another dog one day, and introducing another has always troubled me. This thread is going to stick in my mind for future reference.

The OP is concerned about the relationship between an older dog and a pup. In that case I would let them get on with sorting themselves out, bearing in mind that older dogs are likely to allow youngsters 'puppy licence' for a while but will also teach the pup manners if its behaviour crosses the boundaries of respect & good canine behaviour. However, do not permit the pup to pester the older dog to the extent of driving the latter to distraction. The older dog should always be able to escape the unwanted attentions of a puppy if it so desires.

Only intervene if things look like getting out of hand and if there appears to be the possibility of serious damage being done.

Agree with everything that's been said already. Our dogs have had a few pups in and out of the house now. The BC, who is top dog, warns them off as soon as they get silly round him, a snarl tends to do it and the odd woof and push away, the pups respect him pretty much immediately. On the other hadn the cross is very vocal but the pups ignore this and have a go at playing anyway, it's like they know he is like a narky old grandad and won't (touch wood) follow through! They spend their lives playing with and tormenting him, sometimes we intervene with this as he's knocking on a bit now and needs some peace and quiet!!!! Pups can play toooooo much sometimes and you need to watch out for that and intervene when that's happening. You will know and it sounds very much like you already do, when it's more than play. OUr friends are shocked by the teeth and noises when our lot start to play...but they're dogs, of course they play like that!!!!!!!! No snakes and ladders for them!!!!

A bit off a sidestep but usefull anyhow. When introducing a new dog do it on neutral ground and not at your place. Your dog may be to protective. When introducing an older dog to a pup you may find the older one a bit to rough; what i do in this case is i put the older dog in a down possition not interdicting him to play with the pup (bad for his obedience, i know) and don't forget to praise your older dog even more than you used to do.

Greetings

Johan

Fantastic information about things I didn't know before! Thanks everyone it's opened my eyes somewhat! I was particular interested in the paws on the shoulder bit, coz my rescue sometimes does that with certain dogs, and I always step in and put him on the lead just in case, coz it doesn't seem to be normal play to me somehow, and I want to stop it before it goes any further. I have only ever had bitches in the past, but always gsd's, and I just thought it was a "male" thing. I then thought perhaps it was to submissive type dogs he was doing this, coz he could show his authority to them, whereas he has no chance of doing that at home around my bitch! From what I've read here though, I think it might well be aggression although he's soft as putty and I really don't think he's got it in him somehow. Anyway, thanks for all the great posts, I've found them all very informative and helpful