Dogs do not live in such a simple "pack"some "packs"do not have a"dominant"member of either sex & a truly dominant dog(or bitch)is not easily identifiable. A truly dominant dog(or bitch)does not have to do much to keep the rest of the dogs(or/and bitches)in order. In the 50 odd years I have had dogs i have actually had one dominant dog & in fact she was a bitch. She kept the others in order without any physical intervention, no growls, no snarling etc, a look from her & any unacceptable(to her)behaviour stopped dead. She was dominant from the day she arrived to the day she died. All her puppies were disciplined by her & all grew up to be well mannered dogs. At any one time there were about 10/11 GSDs in her"pack"some related & some not

The day she died(& she did died wasn't PTS)another bitch tried to take her place & failed because she tried to do so by physical means. I put that bitch in her place & after that there were no truly"dominant"members of my dog"pack"

Currently I have no dominant dog(or bitch)although my oldest dog & bitch would like to be in charge they are not & the most dominant non human animal here is the cat-she gets whatever she wants, sleeps wherever she likes & eats whatever she wants(including the dogs food)

To be a real "pack"in animal terms(& in the Canid family terms)all the members are related directly, then there will be naturally what some would call"dominant"members & they are the parent(s)/grand-parent(s)of the rest of the members.

I have a somewhat unusual"pack"of dogs/bitches at this time, two are full brother & sister & the others half brother & sister(sharing their mother) & they often split into two "familiar"pairs.(I do have an interloper of a totally unrelated"visitor"in the form of a different breed & he joins with the two dogs nearest his age !)In both pairs there is no dominant partner ! Interesting or what ?

a little up to date thinking on dog group structure here

In their book Dogs, authors and researchers Raymond and Lorna Coppinger describe a compelling theory of the genetic evolution of wolves into the modern dog. Their theory describes the success of wolves with the shortest “flight distance” — the tolerance for the closest proximity of humans — in gaining access to the rich food sources in the garbage of early human settlements.

This evolution of dogs from packs of hunting predators to opportunistic scavengers is an important change. It is a change of survival tactics that seems largely responsible for the highly flexible and creative social capabilities of dogs. Dogs are a species that seems to be able to easily adapt to life, not just with other dogs but with other species too; not just with humans but cats, horses, livestock and a host of other animals they encounter in natural environments and in their lives with humans.

full article here: http://lifeasahuman.com/2010/pets/do...of-alpha-dogs/

Sadly, thats exactly what I thought you might say ...




Sadly Rips, no he does not realise his dominance/hierarchy theory is a load of Tosh.





They are also not human, and with the same logic, we are not dogs, so why anyone still believes that humans trying to act as dogs to enable them to discipline is beyond me.





I think you have missed the obvious with your intention to prove your point.

The subservient dogs in the pics are NOT being alpha rolled.... they are submitting of their own accord to the more dominant/senior dog .

I have yet to see a mother dog forcibly role her pup onto their back to discipline.

I have however seen many a young boisterous dog /pup, voluntarily submit to an older dog when they have stepped over the mark.

Your picture examples has worked rather well to expose your debunked theory.

Whats the saying...out of the horses mouth, you have just proved everything you have said to be a load of tosh.

True. I am familiar with that theory and I subscribe to it.
Prager Hans

no dogs dont, dogs live with humans in whatever type of structure the human chooses
I guess you ment wolves there - and even that is incorect - a wolf pack tends to be the breeding pair (parents) older cubs from previous litters who havent yet gone on to form their own family group yet and young cubs

lovely photos - I dont see one wolf putting a finger on the other wolf
oh yeah - they dont have fingers do they?

flipping a puppy on his back whether gently or roughly dosent show you are the boss
It is good to train puppies to enjoy being handled and showing their tummies incase the vet needs to check them out

Every group of animals, hoses, dogs, antelopes, lions, ....and even people live in hierarchically structured pack.
Prager Hans

Well I have just come back from visiting a friend with a 14 wk old black lab.... fab little bundle of mischief... guess what said little monster kept doing, turning belly up for me to tickle him tum... bless .

Many years a go, when Bandit was a tiny pup, I took him to training, the trainer was trying to get thim to sit, (he was only 13 wks old, Bandit bless him, did not want to , so she took hold of his lead and forced him onto his back..... guess what the little baby resisted.. and growled and got all snappy............she said .. goodness you are going to have an aggressive dog on your hands there is you dotn sort that out.........

it all happened in a matter of a few seconds... I pretty sharpish took hold of my pup, and told her in no uncertain terms what I thought, then walked out, with her muttering..silly dog owner, she will be sorry.

As most of you have known my boy for years... you will know, the old soul did not have an aggressive bone in his body.

Yet here we are listening to the same old crap by supposedly intelligent dog savvy people.

God help those who seek help from said neanderthals

The trick being.. for the dog not think he is a horse, or the horse to think he is human, or the human to think he is a lion

Sadly all you can say is "sadly".
And also
If you would actually read what I am saying before you are going to try to "debunk" my theory, then you would notice that I do not disagree with you about the roll.
Here for your convenience I reprint part of my former post here:

Alpha roll should be bone in young age not as a punishment but as a relationship building. When you cuddle and play with little pup in the game you without force let him roll on his back and rub his belly. That type of situation then build trust and between a pup and you and helps the pup to recognize you as a pack member on higher hierarchy level then he/she is. This is stemming from behavior which we can observe in every day life of pups amongst them selves and older and thus usually dominant pack member. There is an inherited code of "ethics" amongst the dogs which dictates that dog which rolled over have shown submission and "proper respect " if I may and thus will not be harmed. This is necessary in the social structure of natural pack or the less strong or mature dogs and pups would get hurt and killed until there would be none left.
Thus it is important that the roll is initiated by sub-dominant dog and it is not forced.
If this is then mimick in socialization training it will give then to the pup understanding that the owner /handler is in higher position in the household"packing" order.
This needs to be constantly reinforced through Positive and Negative social interaction and training trough operant conditioning principles...........

Prager Hans

OK for sake of clarity:
You do not believe that dog is responding to you because you told him so to do it, thus you are the dominant member in that relationship?
Prager Hans