Some interesting points here

I have to take issue with some POV

Playing all day with your dog in and outdoors is, IMHO, not a terribly good idea for many dogs.

For some this means the contrast between absence and presence can be devastating. So Separation Anxiety.

Also dogs, like us, NEED to chill out, turn off etc.

Redirecting the object of the chase is a good idea where possible, but as to adrenaline levels being short lived, well without getting all scientific, it is all too easy to turn a dog into an adrenaline junkie which is not always advisable and certainly inadvisable with a certain type of dog.

Also, remembering that the value of something is in inverse ratio to its availability, I agree with Denise regarding taking a dog away from something.

The key is to put access to desired object under your control, using say the Premack Principle as just one example.

I also agree with Denise that some behaviours are SO hardwired into some dogs that diversion is difficult.

It is all very well saying "I did this with x, y etc dog" however for the great majority of people they are not faced with the level of drive in genetically modified dogs bred to fulfil PARTICULAR purpose.

Eg out of the thousands of GSD bred, less than a very few hundred have the drives to take then through say gunshot etc.

Out of the thousands of Labradors bred, less than a few hundred have the drives to take them over cut glass for their prey.

Etc etc


Does not mean you cannot strive for perfection, it DOES mean that expectation management is required to understand that for some dogs NOTHING you can offer will override their inbuilt desire to chase prey (whatever form that takes eg criminal, bird, hare, deer, cyclist, cat, dog, etc etc )

Yes - I`ve seen a lot of very frustrated dogs who have not been allowed to exhibit `normal` behaviours - like retreievers who have been told off for picking things up. The response is usually to grab stuff and run.

I agree with much of what you have said.
However, Again I think it depends on how driven the driven types are.
Transference is not always viable, practical, and in some cases it simply doesn't work.

Deeply ingrained instincts, are deeply ingrained. In my experience only severe negative consequence associated with the instinctual behaviour, will cease the behaviour, in some dogs. And even then, it may only be temporarily.

Cloud once jumped off the Quad bike, of her own accord, to fetch some sheep, onto an electric fence, ravelling her legs in it so much that it took me about 30 seconds to get her free. During this time she received several shocks (as did i) and was deeply traumatised. She associated the shocks with the sheep and was reluctant to work that day , indeed she was much calmer and controllable around them for a few days. But it was only a few days! And only on that particular farm! With that colour sheep!

A move to more northern territories, different terrain and a different breed of sheep and she was back to her normal willfull self. Bless her.

I agree. Personally I feel that far too many people sadly get sucked into these "one size fits all" training techniques and think that they will work for their dog, when in fact all that ends up happening is that it doesn't, they feel like they have failed and they possibly put their dog at risk in the process of believing the dog is "Cured".

I regularly see car chasing collies. In some cases their behaviour can be manipulated or terminated in a few seconds, some in longer sessions, some over months, some temporarily and some NEVER.

Interrestingly if a training technique has a jazzy name, or is named using letters or even more powerfully symbols or logo's then people seem to automatically give it credence. Sometimes inadvisably.

I do sometimes too. I learned recently of a dog trainer nearby to me using a technique called "Security of return". It was one of their main marketing statements. Apparently, the technique would teach the dog that no matter WHAT the circumstance the human was always to be trusted, as the human would always return to save the dog. This in turn built the relationship between dog and handler and this in turn made the dog more compliant and trainable and obediant. Sounds lovely , better check it out I thought.

I went along to the class to see for myself.

Turns out that the "security of return" technique was in fact, a stay excercise. One which had distractions galore during it and was rather elongated in duration, but nonetheless it was a simple and ordinary Stay excercise.
That's marketing for ya!

Agreed.
It is my belief that in strongly driven dogs, the absence or capacity to exhibit normal, genetically predisposed behaviours, often turns into unwanted alternative behaviours.

In all honesty, who would have the energy to do that though, let alone the inclination? When I said I play with mine, it's in short bursts throughout the day indoors, same as it is on a walk, it's play, then she plays with dogs or sniffs about and just trots along. My dog sleeps twice during the day and in the evening she has a chew nice and quietly by the telly, because she has been stimulated throughout the whole day.

I just wanted to correct the impression I must have given that I am completely housebound here and only play with my dog all day lol! I have to also add, that there is NEVER any SA here either. I can shut her in a room alone whilst I get something urgently done elsewhere, she never cries, she never sulks and she's still happy when the door is opened again. Plus I go OUT believe it or not, every single morning and there is no SA, so I don't believe that playing with your dog on a regular basis causes this, quite the reverse imo, because of the bond that develops because of all the play.

[I]My dog and I are best buddies because we plaaaaay almost all day long, [/I]especially with that ball when out and about, plus indoors when I'm trying to do some work, I still play with her letting her know she's not forgotten or ignored, she's not been told to go and lie down in her bed, so I'm her very best buddy, I'm the nucleus of her world

I obviously got the wrong end of the stick from your post..............


so I don't believe that playing with your dog on a regular basis causes this,

And I do not think I said that playing with your dog on a regular basis causes SA..........

What I DID say was:

Playing all day with your dog in and outdoors is, IMHO, not a terribly good idea for many dogs.

For some this means the contrast between absence and presence can be devastating. So Separation Anxiety.

Yeah, whatever! I was answering Dobermann's post where she asked if anybody plays with their dog on a regular basis (can't remember and can't be a*sed to go backand look again quite honestly, I'm busy!)

Some days, if I'm doing housework, she gets the ball kicked now and again on my travels around the house, so yes, I'm playing with her and until she decides to slope off to bed for an afternoon nap, that's what she gets. On other days I go out for the morning, so she doesn't get played with ALL day. that is what I mean! I just wanted to correct my original post which obviously gave people the wrong impression after seeing your post. My point being, play instils a bond and trust, and therefore, when you have that, your dog won't chase things it's not supposed to chase IMO!

Could i just pick up on the physiological side of stress that was mentioned earlier?

There is a huge difference between the physiology of acute stress & that of chronic stress. Acute stress is when the catecholamine release is triggered ~ usually called the adrenaline rush, but it's not really because adrenaline, noradrenaline & dopamine are also released. It is these neurotransmitters that cause increase heart rate, increased respiration, increased supply of glucose the muscles, inhibition of less vital functions like digestion etc. This is the flight/fight response when the body is goes into survival mode. It happens in predatory behaviours as the predator is often at risk from injury or even death during predatory chase & very often the body is required to respond rapidly & strongly.

The acute stress response in these situations is quite normal & necessary & evolved especially to help animals survive. Acute stress is relatively short lived partly because once the animal is safe, or the hunt is over & mission accomplished, the body's homeostatic responses kick in to turn it back to normal, & partly because it is impossible for the body to keep this acute stress response going for long.

But chronic stress is a very different thing & is governed by very different physiology. In chronic stress it is the hypothalamus-pituitary-adrenal axis that is affected & it is this system that releases other hormones & neurotransmitters, ultimately ACTH (adrenocorticotrophic hormone for those that like big words!). ACTH is also known as the "coping" hormone & allows the body to try to adapt to its environment. If ACTH is present in large amounts it is a sign that the animal is not coping and indicates that it is under chronic stress. In chronic stress, activation of the HPA axis also produces cortisol. The immune system also produces cortisol when fighting infection. To keep the homeostatic balance, the immune system detects cortisol levels are too high and gives negative feedback to stop producing cortisol. If the animal gets an illness, the immune system is in negative feedback so no cortisol is produced to help fight the illness.

The interplay between the immune and endocrine systems also affects protein synthesis, enzyme activity and glucose. In chronic stress there can be a delayed anti-body production to fight infection and may cause allergic reactions, e.g. asthma.

ACTH and Cortisol can be measured through saliva, urine or blood but ACTH has a circadian rhythm, i.e. it peaks at midnight to 6.00 am. It is important, therefore, to take measurements at different times of the day and night.

So if you're still with me you can see that there are very different responses to stress!!

Then on top of this, there is the way that the neural pathways in the brain are altered by exposure to acute & chronic stress, and there is the interplay of the physiology of the learning processes, both operant & classical conditioning.

So how does this relate to dog training you may well ask!!! We all know the the adages "practice makes perfect" and "use it or lose it" but these sayings do have a scientific foundation. And we all know that the rush of adrenalin can be addictive & internally rewarding. So if a dog finds that the adrenalin rush of e.g. chasing cats is addictive & internally rewarding, & if the ability to "practice" this behaviour is frequently available, then it can be no surprise to see that the dog is continually looking for opportunities to chase cats!

So how to stop it without causing frustration, unhappiness & more than likely chronic stress, because of the dog's inability to perform behaviours that it enjoys, be they hard-wired instinctive behaviours or learned behaviours?

First avoid the places, scenarios, circumstances etc under which the dog experiences the adrenalin rush. From the physiological perspective this withdraws the adrenalin rush, from the learning perspective, this stops the continual rehearsing or practising of chasing cats. From the brains point of view, this stops the frequent activation of the neural pathways associated with cat chasing.

But, as this is a behaviour the dog enjoys & is probably instinctive, innate & hard-wired (more so in some breeds thn others), then to stop the frustration, unhappiness & ultimately the chronic stress caused by the inability to act out normal behaviours, we have to replace it with something mmore acceptable, e.g. chasing a ball, or a frisbee, or only chasing when off lead in a particular location, or only chasing on the evening walk & not the morning walk, or only chasing seagulls & not anything else. In other words it becomes a management issue & a training issue. But IMO unless you understand all the other factors that you can be bringing into play, such as the physiological, neurological, learning theory & ethological aspects of this huge "jigsaw", then it can be very easy to get wrong. This in turn leads to frustrated owners saying it doesn't work, & frustrated dogs who aren't allowed acceptable outlets for normal behaviours.

Not easy problems to sort out & each individual dog may need this managed & redirected in very different ways ~ so no, there's no "one size fits all", but the basic underlying scientific principles are the same whatever method you use.

This is all getting very scientific here

I think instead of starting with training methods (and I dont mean forget them) if people (and no, not anyone in particular) just put the same emphasis on empathy and attention to detail in thier dogs first (the signs, no matter how fast before the action - and I realise this will catch you out/easy said), then moved onto a balance of limiting behaviours that are unwanted, rewarding behaviours that are, providing 'outlets' for certain drives etc, then you surely will at least not be harming your dog and be starting off with a good balanced view of how to 'move on' in training (for that particular dog)?

Not sure what others think of this?