Adam's thread (Conclusion: post #155, page 16)

This thread is for member Adam Palmer as he is no longer permitted to take part in anyone else's threads.

There are numerous reasons for that, but the main ones are:

• A large number of regular members feel he is a troll - only posting to wind them up
• Many of his posts upset members - as he uses or advocates 'cruel' methods such as electric shock collars, prong collars while cycling etc
• He posts videos that some members find disturbing/are or borders animal cruelty

The reason why he isn't banned is because I don't think he is a 'troll', but that (like many of you have stated) he genuinely believes there is nothing wrong with his 'methods'. So this thread is for anyone who wants to discuss/debate/converse with him, perhaps in an attempt to get him to see why what he is doing is wrong in their opinion.

Everyone else is free to ignore his thread.

Rules

- For Adam

1. Don't think this is a thread for you to 'advertise' your products or services - it's just a thread where people can, if they wish, enter into a dialogue with you and you with them.
   
2. You may not post two consecutive posts in this thread - i.e. you may only post if someone else has posted before you, and your post is in response to that. If you are referring to multiple posts - use multi-quote.
   
3. You may only post one video per post _and_ it must be embeded in the post with YT tags (see video section for instructions) - this is so people have the choice to click play or not (which they don't get if it's a link that starts playing automatically). Additionally, you may not post videos for any banned members.
   
4. You may not post any links in this thread
   
5. Your first post in this thread, if you choose to make one, should state your stance on electric shock collars - but may not contain vids/links/quotes.
   
6. You may not refer to any other members or their dogs or situations/threads in this thread unless they specifically mention it themselves in your thread.

- For everyone else

1. However much he upsets you - don't get 'nasty'. This is not a bash-Adam thread - it's there if you want to try to win him over to your way of training/doing things, if not, just ignore him and this thread.
   
2. Remember, you as a community can effectively 'ban' him - if he gets no posts in this thread after one he's made he can't post again. So that choice is up to you.

- Additional Rules

1. If any new or 'suspicious' members post in this thread (ie so it looks as though their only intention was to revive this thread) their post and any replies to it will be removed.
   
2. These rules may change so keep checking back.

Thanks Azz

In a nutshell (for anyone new to this) I'm a proffessional dog trainer who lives in devon (uk), I have a degree in animal behaviour and welfare (plymouth uni) and currently own four dogs.

I've been a dog trainer for the past 4 years, prior to that I was at uni, however I have always had an interest in dog training/behaviour.

Historically I used reward based methods mixed with aversives, these include rattle bottles, lead corrections and spray collars.

I started using e collars shortly after I became a dog trainer as I found they offered a softer but more effective way of enforcing commands then the other aversives I had used.

I initially used them as correction then moved onto using them to create behaviours.
I have found them much more effective than any other training aid and they really level the field in terms of time/skill/breed type ect. Basically they allow you to train any dog to a pretty good standard within a short period of time! This includes diofficult breeds and those with behaviour problems.

There are two ways of using an e collar

Escape training

This involves teaching the behaviour with the collar, you give the command and stim at the same time, then guide the dog into the behaviour. When the dog starts doing/or does the right behaviour you release the stim praise and reward the dog and repeat.

With escape training you can create a strong response in a short period of time. This is because the direct nature of the negative reinforcement is highly motivational and because of the collar being on the dog and adjustable to its distraction level you can always motivated the dog immediatly!

An example of escape training

Recall, a simple enough behaviour but one that most people find hard to achieve with a degree of reliablity.
To train the recall simply put the dog on a long line or extending lead, have the collar on the dog set to the dog working level. Allow the dog to raom around, call the dog and stim at the same time. Guide the dog towards you with the lead and as he turns/moves to you stop stimming, immediatly praise the dog until it reaches you then reward the dog with a release command and food!
Repeat until the dog turns and runs back to you at the first call without any assitance from the lead.
You can then practise without the lead and in more distracting environments!

This will give you a 100% recall within a few training sessions!

Avoidance training

This means the dog learns to avoid the stim altogether by obeying the command.
The procedure is the same except when you call the dog the first time don't stim, if he ignores you call again and stim!

This approach can taker longer to establish a proper response as the dog may risk it more readily. However it does work well.

The dog also needs to know the command your giving it with avoidance training, with escape you can teach the behaviour from the start on a naive/untrained dog with the collar very easily!

Imo the most effective training starts as escape and then moves to avoidance.

Problem solving

Aggression

Aggression can be devided into two parts.

Predatory
Usually defined as chasing/attacking/killing other prey animals or vehicles, some dogs will direct it onto humans or other dogs though!

This behaviour is dealt with by recalling the dog everytime it attempts it! This breaks the habit as the dog learns that when it trys to chase/attack it has to do the total opposite (move back to the handler), this essentially reporograms the dog!
Other good reprograming is making the dog lay down around its prey (house cats for example) for long periods of time as this removes the chase/drive association. Its important that the down position is calm (over on the hip) as opposed to tense and ready to spring!
Heel is also a good incompatible behaviour for car chasers/lungers ect

You can also correct the dog whenever it fixates on the prey item and guide it into a better behaviour (looking away), this is good for working dogs who need to work loose at a distance from the handler around the prey item without chasing.

All of these techniques require the dog to be trained to respond to the collar/command first!

With some dogs simply correcting them during the chase (until they stop) is effective, however its better if they have prior experience of ''leave'' training with the collar first!

Always make sure the dog has alternative prey items available, such as tennis balls ect.

Social aggression

This is aggression to other dogs or people either through fear or dominance.

Once agian for this we use incompatible behaviours to stop the dog aggressing and make it act the way we want around the trigger persons/dogs!
Good behaviours for this include recall and heel as well as leave, however down is especially useful as it is a calm position and allows the dog to relax around the scary thing, with dominant dogs it makes them feel more submissive!

With fear/dominance you are looking to reprogram the dog into good behaviour around the triggers, this effectively counter conditions the dog on a far deeper level than treats/toys ect as it changes the dog from the inside out as opposed to the outside in!

Other issues

Sep anxiety

Basically we use incompatible behaviours again to reprogram the dog! In this case an ''place'' and down stay command are essential, you use these to make the dog go to and stay in a specific spot while you leave it (short periods at first) this reconditions the dog to be calm about being left.
A bark collar is also useful to stop the noisier dogs!
Obviously the dog will not remain in a down stay on its bed for the whole day your at work but by the process of classical conditioning it will come to associate being left with feeling calm (in its place) and will transfer that to when its loose in the crate or house.

Fear

I mean of spefice thing (noise/cars/floors), this is dealt with in two ways

Obedience

Essentially using the e collar and pre trained commands you make the dog confront its fears, you would recall the dog across a scary floor or through a doorway or make the dog do a stay instead of running away from the noise of the fireworks.
For the car simply train the dog to go on its bed on command then put that in the car and send it in!

Re conditioning

If the dog is scared of a shiny floor stim the dog when its off the floor, guide it onto the floor and then stop the stim! This makes the floor a comfortable space which re conditions the dog from inside out!
The same can be applied to cars for example.

You can also utilise npl in fear cases, in effect make the dog act how you want it to feel, so when it wants to run make it sit calmly, when it wants to hide make it move around with you and so on. Nlp is at the heart of most behaviour resolutions!

With fear issues you need to work the dog until it no longer displays any fear and you need to be the decision maker as this add confidence!

Other issues

These include chewing/jumping on furniture, digging holes stealing food and eating rubbish.

Initially you train a behaviour with the collar so the dog understands the fact it controls the collar, then you wait for the dog to do the ''wrong'' behaviour and use the collar until it stops! With reps the dog learns not to bother.
Make sure the dog has alternative outlets for chewing/digging ect.

How collars work!

E collar training is based around negative reinforcement.
to motivate and reward the dog.
Negative reinforcement basically means the removal of an unpleasent stimulus, in this case the very mild static of the collar!
Virtually all training uses negative reinforcement in some way, for example treat training creates mild stress by withholding the treat until the dog complies, this stress is unpleasent stimulus, when the dog complies it gets the treat and the stress stops!
Most species are trained/handled with direct negative reinforcement (removal of unpleasent stimulus) all the horse training is done with neg reinforcement (physical aversives in this case) the top show jumper/dreassage horse/cutting horse will have been trained with physical aversives as the unpleasent stimulus from first time it was haltered up to the top level stuff.
The training of variouse draft animals (horse/cattle/camels/ellies) is also done with direct negative reinforcement.
Some animals are trained with indirect negative rienforcement (treats) such as zoo animals, however the training is still negative reinforcement based as the animal seeks to elminate the unpleasent state of ''no treat''.

Nuts and bolts of using the collar

You want to think in terms of making the dog do the correct behaviour as opposed to stopping the unwanted behaviour, so apply pressure (stim) until the dog does the right behaviour, wether this is recalling or stopping chewing. This teaches the dog that changing his behaviour stops the stim and that he controls the stim, this makes the dog very much in control (in his head) and gets best results.
Always guide the beginner dog into the behaviour!

Collars have a number of levels (4 to 127) these levels relate to the jump between them not the strength, so a colalr with 127 is no stronger than a collar with 8, there is just smaller jumps. This allows you to adjust the level to each dog sensitivity!
ALways train with the first level the dog feels in that circumstance, this is indecated by a flick of the ears or a slightly look around. Up the levels as distractions get higher, lower them as distractions get lower, always watch the dog more than the remote for info about the level you need!

Getting a collar

As a general rule the more levels the better and the more range the better, contact suppliers with specif questions about your requirements.

I recomend at least 400 yrd range for slow low drive dogs and 800 yrd for most dogs and 1200 for high drive independant dogs, of course it really depends on how far you want the dog to range.

I hope this has been helpful to people

Adam

hello,phil here ...interesting views on training, im open to all i seek as much info as i can.collars.to each there own...hows the feed back from your clientes, your methods....

do u use these phil?

i still cant get over the fact that Adam uses the e collar to TEACH a behaviour, i understand (not agree) why some people use these collars to cause avoidance behaviours, but it is UNFATHOMABLE to me as to why anyone would want to TEACH a dog to do something using any kind of aversive, let alone one that causes pain.

I cannot believe you advocate using a shock collar for separation anxiety!!!!!!!!
I suppose you approve of the stay mats. Tsk.
As for using a shock collar for fear....shock it then stop shocking it when it is by or on the thing it is scared of. {Sigh} Terrible thing to do on oh so very many levels.

since when has using treats (also known as POSITIVE reinforcement) caused stress and been called NEGATIVE reinforcement? i thought we had all agreed that your "theory" was unfounded and therefore NOT true?!

hi Adam, i didnt even know about other types of training with an e collar, i just thought that if a dog done somthing unwanted you zapped it.
But i cant see it being better than positive reinforcement.

If i was asked to go to the shop for someone and there would be a mars bar waiting for me to eat when i got back, i would be happy to go,

If i was being shocked in the neck until i got back. i would probably run to the shop and back BUT i wouldnt be happy about it

being happy is more important than speed. wouldnt you say?

Mods - can we please ask that adams bits of 'science' about positive training being punishing and stressful be removed if he cannot cite some proper evidence to show where he gets these ideas from?

great post and a great way of putting it...what he said^^