is Denis banned from here then?

Adam scares me, not in a freaky kind of way, but because he claims to be a dog trainer. Who in their right mind would let him within touching distance of their dog, let alone "train" it

Yes. And if Adam posts on his behalf, or things he's said - his account will be banned too. Take that as a final warning Adam.

I'm not posting on anyones behalf!

The fact is smokeybear is a well regarded schutzand trainer and it is easy to find pics of her dog.

The reason I added her to this thread was simply because she is an example of someone who uses prong collars.

Adam

dont you think she could post her own pics

They don't hurt??? I assure you they do.. and can... Lest we forget these shocking images:



They are barbaric... Medieval torture devices and any who use them or advocate their use immediately loses all of my respect...



A 'famous' trainer who doesn't normally care one way or another about their use admitted that in aggression cases prong collars make it more likely that the dog in a heightened state of aggression could turn on the owner as the perceived source of another 'attack' when they feel their throat gripped.

For every argument 'for' the collars there are just far more against them and far better and more successful training methods.

The Utonagan we took on when he was 3yrs old (private rehome)came to us with a prong collar. He had also been 'professionally trained' using a shock collar
We put him in an ordinary collar and as soon as he realised he wasn't in pain on his walks he started to pull like a steam train and we had to take him right back to basics. Before we got him I was told he walked to heel so the pain of the prong collar had obviously been enough to 'control' him.

That doesn't prove the prong collar worked by pain though, it just proves that the dog responded better to it than to a flat collar.

Looking at the white dog in the picture with the prong on, it certainly doesn't seem bothered. In fact it appears quite relaxed yet focused.

Adam

ever heard of being stoic or suffering in silence Adam

A utonagan - or any northern breed type for that matter - would be the very LAST dog I would use a prong collar on - not that I would EVER do such a thing. I have a Ute, and a Ute type. Both are rescues, and both pulled like the very devil when they each in turn came to live with us. Tai is massive, weighing in at 45 kilos, but within a few days I had him walking nice and relaxed with no pulling. How did I achieve this? With an ordinary nice soft leather collar (not the horrible choke chain that he came with) and a lead.

Ben was even worse - he is the son of our deceased wolf cross, Hal - and he was completely undisciplined with a tendency to be aggressive if you did something to him he didn't like. He was even easier than Tai to get to walk nicely on the lead without pulling - it took a lot longer to get him to accept my grooming him, especially his tail - but now I can do anything with him without fear of a growl or an aggressive threat from his jaws. He still has issues with being grabbed by the collar - you have to grasp him very gently - it is my firm opinion that some ******* in the past grabbed him and beat him - so I am going gently gently with him. He still will turn on your hand occasionally, but never now with a growl or a lift on the lips, just a threat. I just keep hold of his collar, tell him to sit so that I then have something to praise him for and tell him he is a good boy and has nothing to fear. I release the collar and immediately grasp it again, just to show him he's not going to be beaten, and then he will do whatever it is I want him to do. The very THOUGHT of using a prong collar on him makes me shudder. Utonagans do not respond well to pain - if you want a utonagan to walk nicely and not drag you over, do not try to do this through pain or fear. You will end up eventually, sooner or later, with a dog like Ben, who rebels and ends up attacking you. I am convinced that he would have badly bitten me by now had I not adopted the firm but gentle, consistent approach that I have.

Thats because dogs innately trust us and love us and look to us for guidance.. I have seen dogs with horrific injuries or having suffered from terrible abuse look at their owners and even their abusers the same way...