In any doubt e-collars are mental (and physical) abuse?

Then watch this:

[WARNING: Contains disturbing images of cruelty to animals and children]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode..._Mind_Control/

While the program is about human mind control, it covers experiments done by Russian scientists on dogs using electric shock treatment. The electric shocks used were of a higher current, but the principle is the same. The findings show that the effects on the brain of the dog, when the shocks are associated with certain things, has such an impact that after a while of 'treatment' the dog acts as though it is being 'shocked' when just the associated thing is shown to it.

It basically brain damages the dog.

They didn't stop there either - they carried out similar experiments on children! I found it all very disturbing - not for the faint hearted!

EDIT: Please note there is a separate thread here, where you can view this thread being summarised by members who took part in it. The reason we brought in a summary thread was to help any newcomers to this thread see what ensued without having to read all 200 pages, and while they might be forgiven for thinking over 200 pages and 2000 posts equates to a 'big' debate taking place, actually, they'd find that the majority of members are against shock collars and all those posts came about after one person (who has a financial interest in shock collars) kept arguing they're not cruel. See the summary thread for more details.

Sounds interesting, but I daren't look as usual.

Will follow the thread though

That looks interesting Azz I will see if it is on catch up tv. I would be interested to watch it.

If I cannot find it I will come back to the video when I have the time spare later and watch it.

Is it a similar sort of thing they use to do with people who had mental health issues ?

Yes

One of the women who was sent there by her parents because she fancied some bloke (!) and now can only remember that she 'forgets'. Their idea was to get someone to have a nervous breakdown, and then instil the new behaviour into them (as the brain rewires itself after a breakdown). And the doctor involved insisted on using all techniques... together! Shocks/induced sleep for 3 months at a time in some cases!/chemicals etc

The other doctor, the Russian doctor started off looking into saliva production in dogs relating to different foods (they had been operated on to expose their salivary glands! Tubes sticking out of their cheeks! ) and he found that dogs started to produce it when the men in white coats who fed them arrived (association) - and that's when he went on to do the other tests. There are videos of children with the same things on their faces too

One 'good thing' that arose out of all this, is positive reinforcement techniques - which is covered in some detail too.

It has nothing to do with e collar training as done by modern trainers.

Adam

The same could apply to any association. All it does is demonstrate that if you associate a stimulus with a consequence (good/bad) enough the stimulus will come to represent that consequence .

Adam

Positive reinforcment techniques are just as manipulative ect as aversive techniques.

This idea that reward based methods are somehow more effective and at the same time less harmful than aversives is rubbish.

If they are effective there is just as much potential fallout from them as from aversives.

If they have no fall out they simply arn't effective because they are insufficently motivating.

Adam

Btw I use a mixture of both.

They administer electric shocks.
e-collar trainers administer electric shocks.

Please show me how that has nothing to do with it.

It also demonstrates how such mental and physical abuse results in brain damage.

It also shows that positive reinforcement is much healthier (i.e no brain damage) and is more humane (i.e dog is not physically hurt in anyway).

E collars can't physically hurt the dog! Did the video actually suggest that or is that your opinion?

Btw havn't watched the vid as compute is sh*t.

Do these dogs look brain damaged?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQfZ9gi7hg8

Adam

Russia did a lot of awful experiments, like the attaching of another dog head to an existing one, and removing a head and organs and it being able to respond still.

Positive reinforcement techniques help us get what we want of our pets to do, kindly. We don't abuse our dogs, but get them to do what we'd like by rewarding them.

Electric shock collar training punishes and hurts them for not doing as they're told. This is both mental and physical abuse. Ask any psychologist.

Any kind of training can be used to make the dog do 'wrong things', but if you're suggesting positive-reinforcement-techniques hurt the dog physically, then you're wrong. (They wouldn't be called positive reinforcement techniques otherwise )

What are you on about?

Just out of curiosity Azz, I previously wasn't sure of your stance on it but can see that you are obviously against e-collars at the very least - do you not feel as Admin that you could perhaps apply a rule to the forum that bans/discourages the discussion of negative training methods? Another dog forum I am on does this and to be honest I like the fact that I can go on there and won't be frustrated by threads encouraging e-collars, dominance theories, etc. and it is reassuring to know that newbies won't come along and be talked into this methods. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Dogsey but it seems lots of the aggravation/arguments are caused by discussion relating to negative methods like the e-collar.