Claireanddaisy - well at least you're not spouting forth daft 'positive training works for everything' or 'all dogs are the same' nonesense. Which is nice.

Yes, it's vital to understand the dog rather than trying to force a training method fit. The dog has instincts that make it very hard to keep it safe whilst off-lead. Yes, those instincts are near to impossible to overcome through training. Yes, it's better if, where possible, you can concentrate on what the dog is good at.

But the breed needs to run off-lead to thrive (due to it's breeding) yet it's breeding makes that highly dangerous. I knew what I was taking on when I chose my dogs and I don't regret doing it. But I have a duty by my dogs and part of that duty is to deal with this VERY difficult problem.

Some people are helpful. Others are nasty and aggresive because it's a problem that their preferred training methodology can't help much with. But it's worth putting up with the nasty people for the little snippets of help you get from the nice people I'm sure you'll turn out to be one of the good guys

Great thread Wys - I have been using CU exercises on Mia for a while - especialy her version on the premack principle
Which works totaly great! and some of her other ideas has just been so amazing in helping me rethink how to deal with her aggression issues (the 'look at that' game and 'theres a dog in your face' game are so amazing)
Because its difficult to build up the levels of distractions in the environment I have actually finally got hold of a hall and a couple of friends with dogs with issues (who are all fine with Mia) so I can work on the exercises in more space and try practising teaching a class (gulp)
It is also covered in the culture clash which I have found most interesting too

The best use of the CU version of premack principle (and the give me a break game) I have been using is to wonder about a big safe space, every slight bit of checking in with me gets a click and a treat, then sent away to play again
Over a short space of time the dog starts checking in with you more often, and running to you is doubly rewarded - not only a click and a treat - but also to get to play some more
By the end of a handful of treats Mia is glued to my side with a lovely heel, doing several tricks and loving it before being sent off to play for a short time

It also is helping improve Bens focus and concentration

Cheers!
Do you also teach Mia to look at you at all? I find this interesting because I've not used the "look at that" or got a dog to check out the dog they are afraid of due to currently thinking that i want the dog operant, so tend to train for looking at me first ..am interested if you did LAT first?
OOOH fun!

Nice one, I like it

Wys
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Very much like the husky world!

I don't think any method can solve everything - but, I would say that if my dog's life was at stake (and again, we come back to ethics about keeping dogs that are not highly trainable) I would actually plump for reward methods.

Reasons for this I think I've posted before, but basically don't fall into the trap of assuming that punishment method can achieve anything better.... that's not necessarily the case.

Several dog trainers who work in areas such as Cumbria and face many sheep chasing dogs, for example, dislike electric collars. They have a method that redirects the dog onto a new target which works if implemented correctly with about 95% of chasers ... the rest they choose to use punishment but the collar they go for is not a shock collar, it's actually a specially prepared spray collar

It is fair to add that some others do use ecollars, but then the ones who do not sometimes see their clients a while afterwards.

I agree, that's not fair - if the owner's clearly done their best. Genetics will out. Management may have to play a part in some cases with some dogs. No shame in that at all.

Out of interest, genuine question, do you think you are being anthropomorphic? again not judging (and I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing in some ways) but do you not think your dogs have agood life and are satisfied with lure coursing and cani x etc? Just wondering.

Have you seen this dog? reason I ask is because a common thing that can happen is "velcro dog" where the dog learns the safe space is by the owner - but, such dogs do not tend to go very far at all. My friend in Colorado frequents dog parks where it is very common for the dogs to wear shock collars. She hates them, as the company she tried using for her dog to be trained with this system lied to her about her dog and - long story but you get the picture.

Anyway, she sees many dogs who do not even play ball with their owners as they are too afraid to wander that far away. Some owners think it's fab, some are sad they have lost their bond of play. Not saying this is the case with the dog you describe, hopefully not, but it is possible from the little description you've given....


Wys
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Wys before the LAT game with Mia I first made sure she had a v strong default sit with eye contact - a behaviour she offers any time she wants anything
The the idea of the LAT is she glances at the other dog and back to me

Its really funny actualy because before CU I was trying to teach her to look at me exclusivly but she was glancing at the other dog.
Then I had it explained
Imagine you are walking down a dark allyway and you are scared of what is in the shadows
If your friend demands that you stair at them all the way down the alley will you feel safer about what is in the shadows?? Its natural to look at something then check back with your confident friend 'did you see that??' 'Yup you daftie it was a plasic bag'

With the LAT game it is fab because even if I dont see what is worrying Mia the behaviour is to glance at it and then back at me for the treat - so rather than her reacing and going off her head she will keep looking back to me to make sure I am seeing her spotting all the dogs
Of course I have to keep her below threashold - but that distance is getting less - on good days the other side of the road is OK for another dog to walk by
I was surprised how well it worked and how easy it was to teach - I havent put a cue to it as such but it was lovely at the last agility show to see her happily glancing at other dogs walking past then looking up to me and licking her lips

interested to see if it will work for my friends car chasing collie

I liked the part that says you can get maybe 2 or 3 steps of loose lead walking. That's all I get in this snow because Tilly gets so cold. She wants to go everywhere at 100mph!

I like the idea of letting the dogs be dogs - that's what I aim for for my dogs, they do stay fairly close most of the time, but I love to see them running around playing and sniffing, whilst knowing that if I call them they'll come running (and looking for the clicker ).

Ah got it, thanks

absolutely - it's almost like using the 2 ways - either "watch" or "look at the dog and see where it is" in combination and yes, I totally get and use myself the scary scenario and what a person or dog might prefer!

Excellent, thanks for explaining it more, it does make a lot of sense

Lots of luck and for your friend too!

Wys
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Thanks for the post Wysiwyg - I like learning new training methods and I've been practicing this with Lola and Marius. It is really effective

Excellent!

Wys
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Since the westie attack I have kept Kismet on a lead and muzzled around other dogs and on her head collar at all other times (in places where I can't see another dogs, or in town). I would ideally love to get to a point where she could run loose again. Her recall is excellent, she walks on a loose lead and will leave controlled onlead, or even calm offlead dogs alone, not even giving them a glance as we walk past... She happily plays with calm and happy dogs her size and bigger.

Her problem is with loose small dogs approaching her. If they run up in that growly bossy manner of many terriers, she just snaps. Tries to throw them to the ground and pin them there.. When the westie attacked her sparking this behaviour in the first place she pinned him making a terrible noise. The owner of the westie intervened and was bitten by his own dog. I pulled Kismet away, the westie was unharmed, but Kismet's peace of mind is in tatters. Her fear of small dogs, particularly little white dogs over rides any command if they approach her and I have to pull her away and calm her down.

I am trying to find a behaviourist to work with in my area, but meanwhile we are trying to work through this on our own..

Any who have met happy Kismet 'jeckyl' playing with their dogs can't believe her evil 'hyde' side until they see it.. On the other hand any small dog owner at the moment calmly advises me I should get my vicious dog put down and how wolfdogs like that should be banned.

If I understand this training method I should begin to ask Kismet to look at the smaller dogs and then reward her for moments of calm looking at her nemesisdog then walk her away and play with her. So I need small white dog owners willing to let my 'vicious wolfdog' stare them down... Wish I knew any...