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Mahooli
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16-07-2009, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by JuniorDaddy View Post
Have some of the people commenting on this topic even watched 'The Dog Whisperer'?
Yes!

Originally Posted by JuniorDaddy View Post
He is a calm, gentle dog lover who clearly understands how dogs think & interact.
Throwing dogs around, pinning them to the floor or stringing them up are neither calm nor the actions of a dog lover who in any way shape or form understands dog behaviour.

Originally Posted by JuniorDaddy View Post
His pack of dogs clearly adore & respect him & the dogs he helps on his show end up happier & balanced, whats wrong with that?
Sometimes his dogs look downright frightened of him. Just because a dog does as it's told doesn't mean the dog likes the person it is 'obeying'. The dogs on his show do not end up happier they end up broken spirited. Have you not read the stories of the aftermath of CM's methods? Funny how they do not seem to follow up a few months later what is going on with the dogs unlike other dog training programmes.
Becky
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Meg
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16-07-2009, 09:45 AM
Originally Posted by JuniorDaddy View Post
Have some of the people commenting on this topic even watched 'The Dog Whisperer'? He is a calm, gentle dog lover who clearly understands how dogs think & interact. His pack of dogs clearly adore & respect him & the dogs he helps on his show end up happier & balanced, whats wrong with that? 'Lottie' made several comments which seemed to only be the same as what Cesar preaches so why are is methods 'claptrap'? My dog is 9yrs old now & I have put up with his problems for years, since I discovered the Dog Whisperer a couple of years ago, Cesars methods have made a massive difference to our lives.
Hi Junior Daddy do a search on the forum for Cesar Milan/Dog Whisperer and you will see that not only have many of us 'watched him' but we have linked to and analysed in detail various episodes of this 'TV entertainers' programs.
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Labman
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16-07-2009, 10:11 AM
Ah, but gentle methods taught by Ian Dunbar work even better. You can follow the well proven dominance principles without harsh methods.

Before they are ''disproven'' somebody will have to give an alternative as effective and that explains dog behavior better.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-07-2009, 10:30 AM
yes i have watched cm, in great detail often with the sound off so i can watch what is really going on instead of what he wants you to think is going on

as for a different theory as why dogs do what they do
its really easy

a dog does something, if there is a rewarding outcome then it is more likely to do it again, if it is not rewarding then it is less likely to do it

you reward the behaviours you like in your dog and train an alternative for the behaviours you done - while preventing the dog from rewarding itself
ie, dog steals food
its rewarding to the dog to steal the food
dont leave temptation in its way, then teach the dog in small steps that it is really rewarding to leave food thats lieing about

simples, fair and kind

when i see cm calmly stringing up a dog and cutting off its air it always makes me think of the bit in the silence of the lambs where hanible is calmly cutting up the guy with the music on in the background
just cos someone is calm dosent mean he is doing good
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Sarah27
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16-07-2009, 10:35 AM
I heard yesterday of a trainer that puts CM to shame....

I was talking to a girl I know whose friend has a staffy that is very hyper (probably needs decent food and decent exercise IMO). They got a trainer in who proceeded to get the family to throw water balloons at the dog. Surprise surprise the dog went totally hyper, doing walls of death round the room.

My friend said to the owner 'Did you get this trainer out of the joke book?'

Poor dog.
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Mahooli
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16-07-2009, 10:47 AM
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
Before they are ''disproven'' somebody will have to give an alternative as effective and that explains dog behavior better.
My own group of dogs disproves any sort of pack/leadership/dominance theories. Don't need to do training to see what is at work!
Becky
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Krusewalker
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16-07-2009, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Labman View Post
Ah, but gentle methods taught by Ian Dunbar work even better. You can follow the well proven dominance principles without harsh methods.

Before they are ''disproven'' somebody will have to give an alternative as effective and that explains dog behavior better.
might be misunderstanding you here, but Dunbar rejects dominance theory.
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JuniorDaddy
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16-07-2009, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
My own group of dogs disproves any sort of pack/leadership/dominance theories. Don't need to do training to see what is at work!
Becky
Are you trying to say dogs are not pack animals? Dogs in their natural state follow a 'leader' & display dominance towards others. This isnt me or Cesar Millan saying it, it is a fact! Thats not to say they cant live together harmoniously too, that just means they have an understanding with each other of their statuses within their pack.
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JuniorDaddy
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16-07-2009, 01:50 PM
I think you have to remember that alot of the dogs Cesar deals with are extreme ('red zone') cases that are beyond the help of positive reinforcement. Many of them would be put down without his help. His methods work with these cases because he mimics behaviour that another dog (pack leader or mother) would do to let the dog know that their behaviour is unacceptable. Dogs pin each other down & throw each other around all the time, sometimes as play sometimes not (!), are they being cruel too?

I dont mind that people dont agree with his methods & choose to try others but I do mind people saying he is cruel & harsh & doesnt know what he talking about.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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16-07-2009, 01:56 PM
greater apes and humans are supposed to form that kind of hirearchy, but when bringing up children if one takes things from others, dosent share and guards things from others we dont say he is being dom and support his status, we say they are being rude and teach other ways to behaive

if a dog with a strong personality gets away with stealing food of a more cautious dog it will do it more, its rewarding for the stealing dog cos it gets food, and its rewarding for the other dog cos it avoids a fight
not dom just a learnt behaviour, sure thinking of pack leaders can work to give you the illusion of ahappy pack but in reality you are supporting a bully. honestly a group of dogs can interact more than happily if you have house rules that teaches dogs good manners with each other
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