This is what I said to you Jackbox:

"Unless of course there is a medical reason, and that is entirely different. But it is just because you are unable to train the dog to recall, or not chase sheep, or whatever is the reason that you keep him confined to a life on the lead, then yes I think you are cruel."

I made a typo there - I should have said "if" it is just because you are unable to train the dog ... "

I think I covered the scenario it would seem that is your problem with your boxer, Jackbox.

Quote:
GABRIELLA RAVANI, GREAT DOGS TRAINING & EDUCATION, SAN DIEGO, CA

One of my agility students took her JRT to an e-collar snake aversion training. The dog didn't learn that snakes were dangerous; instead she learned that being in groups of people and their dogs is painful! This dog is now ruined for agility and can no longer run in agility trials; the park-like setting and crowd of people and dogs are too similar to the aversion seminar setting, resulting in a dog who is a shivering wreck on the agility field. Her owner no longer enters her in trials, which is so sad as the dog still really loves class and is very talented. The owner is heartbroken as she feels she has damaged her dog for life.



This is one of my concerns, that the dog would associate the zap with something else.

I'm very sure I get it wrong with positive reinforcement sometimes, so that Loki thinks he's being rewarded for something else, although I hope with repetition, he will get the message. I wouldn't want to go down the route of repetitive e-collar zaps to get the message across.

Some proponents of e-collars say the zap can be set to be very mild; if that were the case, it would be ignored by Loki anyway, so pointless.

Yes indeed LS. I would think zapping a dog with epilepsy would be an incredibly dangerous thing to do.

I was very unhappy with the Shadow episode too. But I disagree about the use of the e-collar to train Daddy to keep away from snakes, I think there was little choice bearing in mind that Cesar was exercising the dog in Southern California - a hot dry place popular with rattlesnakes!

I saw that quote posted by Minihaha, and agree with her and you, that is terrible. But that may be a one-off case, we don't know. If I were having to walk Tai in Southern California, and he was showing too healthy an interest in the local venomous snakes, I would consider an e-collar if all else failed.

Indeed, that is sadism.

Well do your own googling then !! I am trying to catch up with happenings, having broken off to take my poor abused dog for a walk !

Life is full of risks Tassle, we cannot protect ourselves or our dogs against them totally. All we can do is to minimise the risk. So I personally feel that Cesar was justified in using rather extreme measures to reduce Daddy's risk. Being a pitbull his prey drive, tenacity and sheer bloody mindedness means that drastic measures were needed.

I haven't seen the episode, Gnasher; I'm just going on what I've read here. I didn't subscribe, you see ...

We're a thoughtful bunch where our dogs are concerned on here so I would hate to see e-collars in the hands of 'just anyone' - for this reason. I'd also be worried that they are open to mis-use. I do realise that things like choke chains are too. Or a big stick.

In response to your first paragraph Jackbox : SHAN'T !!!

No to the 3rd, I have trained Tai NOT to chase anything unless I say he can. You don't like Cesar Millan, so you won't be interested in learning how I did this - no aversion methods though. He is allowed to chase rabbits - saves money on the food bill !

We are not talking about snakes in the UK, although we have already heard from wolfdog how even our Adder can be dangerous to dogs. We are talking about the lethal snakes such as the rattlesnake and the pit adder, amongst many others, found in the States.

But I for one won't condemn my dog to a life on the lead ! If I lived in Southern California, with Tai, and he was in grave danger from rattlesnakes, I would not try and solve the problem by keeping him on a lead! I would do everything I could to train him to leave the dang things alone, and most probably I would be able to, but should I completely fail, and any dog trainer I employed also failed, then I would consider calling in an expert in the use of an e-collar. But I have to say it would have to be the most very last resort.