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Tassle
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22-05-2009, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Joedee is absolutely right and this is why I have such a problem with the concept of the Alpha roll.

A dog may try to pin another dog and that dog will flee, fight back or submit voluntarily by adopting the appeasement position on its back.
When humans force a dog into submission with the so called alpha roll , the dog is not submitting voluntarily, it is being forced to do something which is totally unnatural and this can have disastrous consequences for the behaviour of that dog which is being taught humans are aggressive and not to be trusted.

Like Joedee when I say this I base my conclusion on 50 years of observing and working with dogs not just on a study .
The latest study just confirms what many of us came to realise over many years about the Dominance Theory.
I must find the pictures - although they do not show what happened before. There was no way Pippin was going to go over willingy to Merlin.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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22-05-2009, 06:29 PM
Gnasher I dont agree that the research is any more flawed than any other out there

The act of observing something often changes its behaviour - and in animal studies it is difficult to not influence what you are observing

It would be impossible to ethicaly do this research any other way than how they have done it

What do you suggest?? take well balanced dogs out of their happy homes to make this super pack and then study them?? That would stress the dogs out just as much as them being in rescue

I believe what they have done is the best compramise they could

Of course the best way to study the dog is in its natural environment - which is singly or in small groups living with man
but the problem with that is that dogs are smart and learn from what is around them so it depends on the training they have had as to how they respond
which is basicaly the conclusion of this work - dogs learn their behaviour based on what is most rewarding for them or what avoids bad things happening
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Gnasher
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22-05-2009, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
Gnasher I dont agree that the research is any more flawed than any other out there

The act of observing something often changes its behaviour - and in animal studies it is difficult to not influence what you are observing

It would be impossible to ethicaly do this research any other way than how they have done it

What do you suggest?? take well balanced dogs out of their happy homes to make this super pack and then study them?? That would stress the dogs out just as much as them being in rescue

I believe what they have done is the best compramise they could

Of course the best way to study the dog is in its natural environment - which is singly or in small groups living with man
but the problem with that is that dogs are smart and learn from what is around them so it depends on the training they have had as to how they respond
which is basicaly the conclusion of this work - dogs learn their behaviour based on what is most rewarding for them or what avoids bad things happening
I agree entirely, it is a difficult situation. But it still doesn't alter the fact that the research is flawed, does it?

My analogy of David Mech doing his life long research on Shaun Ellis's wolves at Coombe Martin, simply because it was easier, instead of the wild wolves on Ellesmere Island is a good one I think.
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Wysiwyg
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22-05-2009, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by Pidge View Post
Good. I see this as a positive start in getting the word out and changing people's views.

Lives would be alot easier all round had this knowledge been more common from the start. I speak from experience.
Well said there Pidge

Wys
x
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weim1
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22-05-2009, 11:36 PM
i agree with gnasher, dont believe the study
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mse2ponder
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22-05-2009, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by weim1 View Post
i agree with gnasher, dont believe the study
Have you read the full text? I haven't been able to read it yet as I don't have a subscription.
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weim1
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22-05-2009, 11:44 PM
Originally Posted by mse2ponder View Post
Have you read the full text? I haven't been able to read it yet as I don't have a subscription.
No just the short one,that was enough for me to know I wont waste my money
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mse2ponder
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22-05-2009, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by weim1 View Post
No just the short one,that was enough for me to know I wont waste my money
I just think it's a bit premature to 'not believe' something if you haven't read the study, but that's just me. I mean, Gnasher has problems with the method, which is fair enough, though reading the full thing may shed some useful light. Anyway, I'm going to have to call in some favours so I can hopefully read it over the weekend.
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weim1
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22-05-2009, 11:55 PM
let us know what it says
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mike_c
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23-05-2009, 02:01 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Still haven't done the reading Wys, but I have got as far as printing the Abstract !! It's a start.

The point you make in your final paragraph is exactly my point, which is why for sure the researchers used dogs from the Rescue Home ... but it doesn't excuse or make up for the fact that this means the research is flawed.

The equivalent analogy would be David Mech ... instead of living for tens of summers on Ellesmere Island with wild wolves ... choosing to live in the enclosure with Shaun Ellis's wolves at Coombe Martin because it was easier and a darn site less hostile.
Gnasher, I've got to admire your persistence in your belief system, but I'll try to explain how I see it anyway...

If I get you right, you think that the research is flawed because of the choice of dog groups, but you can accept that:
a) feral dogs, with no human interaction (ie as close to wolf-like state as a dog could be), didn't have a pack hierarchy,
b) dogs in a rescue centre that were allowed to interact in a group (so not dog-dog aggression cases) over a 6 mth period (ie they weren't up for rehoming for some reason) didn't have a pack hierarchy,

Does that mean these rescue dogs with human-dog interaction issues are exactly the ones not suitable to use CM's techniques on, as they are 'unnatural' (just like those 'unnatural' feral carnivores), in that they are the ones that don't show pack hierarchy behaviour?

... and yet you're still sure that dogs in a real-life 'domestic' environment always have a pack hierarchy which includes humans - and it's not that they're adaptive enough to learn to fit in with you expectations, whatever they might be.
('Open your mind', as that guy said to Luke Skywalker)

By the way, I've never done any dominance/pack thing, we just have fun, but I am consistent and don't reward unwanted behavior, and my dogs seem to have adapted to that just fine too.

I reckon any problem dog punished often enough without it being able to work out why so as to avoid it, would be adaptive enough to give up doing anything that might attract attention to itself... and hey presto the problem behaviour is cured!
And so is the fun of having an actual dog, as it's so afraid of you (I've met and been bitten by one, and will never forget the look in it's eyes), that anyone with sense would have to be afraid of it.
But that's not a cure I would wish on anyone.
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