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Lotsadogs
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22-05-2009, 02:20 PM
I think the problem with all of these research papers, intersting as they are in their own right. is that they take groups of canids that are NOT living in a typical domestivc environement and try to apply them to dogs living in a domestic environment.

Thats similar to looking at the behaviour of the Masai warriors and trying to apply their interpersonal behaviours, traditional dance routines, and mechanisms for communication to a group of up and coming Stockbrokers livining near Canary Wharf, or a group of social friends drunk in a pub one night or a bunch of solicitors at a conference. It just doesnt fit the same.

I think there are interesting points in this and all studies, but i dont think it is sensible to reach some of the conclusions they have.

Im pretty sure that if i turned my dogs out on the street to fend for themselves, or put them on the african savan, or indeed introduced new dogs to the group as I regularly do, their behaviours and "rank displays" woudl change. They always do, no matter what the external change.

I do not think that this research proves or disproves anything more than a bunch of interesting findings under the research criteria that was laid out.

Now if they hd studied a thousand pet dogs in pet dog homes and found that each one is different, entirely different, based on the genetic diversity, the number of dogs/human ratios, the intellectual capcity and education of both humans ans dogs and the trained and no trained behaviours and the level of environmental influence. NOW THAT i think would really be interestin stuff.
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Gnasher
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22-05-2009, 02:32 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I think the problem with all of these research papers, intersting as they are in their own right. is that they take groups of canids that are NOT living in a typical domestivc environement and try to apply them to dogs living in a domestic environment.

Thats similar to looking at the behaviour of the Masai warriors and trying to apply their interpersonal behaviours, traditional dance routines, and mechanisms for communication to a group of up and coming Stockbrokers livining near Canary Wharf, or a group of social friends drunk in a pub one night or a bunch of solicitors at a conference. It just doesnt fit the same.

I think there are interesting points in this and all studies, but i dont think it is sensible to reach some of the conclusions they have.

Im pretty sure that if i turned my dogs out on the street to fend for themselves, or put them on the african savan, or indeed introduced new dogs to the group as I regularly do, their behaviours and "rank displays" woudl change. They always do, no matter what the external change.

I do not think that this research proves or disproves anything more than a bunch of interesting findings under the research criteria that was laid out.

Now if they hd studied a thousand pet dogs in pet dog homes and found that each one is different, entirely different, based on the genetic diversity, the number of dogs/human ratios, the intellectual capcity and education of both humans ans dogs and the trained and no trained behaviours and the level of environmental influence. NOW THAT i think would really be interestin stuff.
Another good post Lotsadogs. I have printed off the abstract now for the paper, and I shall read it whilst waiting for hubby's train later on. I am sure there will be much interesting stuff in there, but I am still concerned about the choice of subject matter. I do concede of course that it would be hard and doubtless extremely expensive to put together a "super pack" of a cross section of doggie society, taking into account different breeds etc. etc. etc., but to just take two "sections" as it were ... and extreme ones at that ... is just unscientific and opening itself up to challenge I would have thought.
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Lotsadogs
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22-05-2009, 02:43 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I do concede of course that it would be hard and doubtless extremely expensive to put together a "super pack" of a cross section of doggie society, taking into account different breeds etc. etc. etc., but to just take two "sections" as it were ... and extreme ones at that ... is just unscientific and opening itself up to challenge I would have thought.
Oh for sure! I agree entirely!

The thing is though, we do we feel the need to try to apply outdared, irrelevant, misleading, or innapropriate findings to our best friends???

We dont we just decide what it is we want from them, what they want from us, and find a way of doing that?

Understanding how other species and situations work is fine, and Ive spent much of my life doing ti, but is it really necessary to have a happy, well adjusted, well trained dog? I dont think so. Is it necessary to cause divisions amongst dog owners and trainers, a talking point, soemthign to fill a life with the study of....? Maybe, but does that help you, with your dog?
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Wysiwyg
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22-05-2009, 05:13 PM
Originally Posted by Lotsadogs View Post
I think the problem with all of these research papers, intersting as they are in their own right. is that they take groups of canids that are NOT living in a typical domestivc environement and try to apply them to dogs living in a domestic environment.

Thats similar to looking at the behaviour of the Masai warriors and trying to apply their interpersonal behaviours, traditional dance routines, and mechanisms for communication to a group of up and coming Stockbrokers livining near Canary Wharf, or a group of social friends drunk in a pub one night or a bunch of solicitors at a conference. It just doesnt fit the same.

I think there are interesting points in this and all studies, but i dont think it is sensible to reach some of the conclusions they have.

Im pretty sure that if i turned my dogs out on the street to fend for themselves, or put them on the african savan, or indeed introduced new dogs to the group as I regularly do, their behaviours and "rank displays" woudl change. They always do, no matter what the external change.

I do not think that this research proves or disproves anything more than a bunch of interesting findings under the research criteria that was laid out.

Now if they hd studied a thousand pet dogs in pet dog homes and found that each one is different, entirely different, based on the genetic diversity, the number of dogs/human ratios, the intellectual capcity and education of both humans ans dogs and the trained and no trained behaviours and the level of environmental influence. NOW THAT i think would really be interestin stuff.
I may have confused things, the feral dogs I believe were not used by the authors of the study but they comment on previous studies done on them in the light of newer information as I understand it. These are very highly respected people in their field, very highly respected

Re the dogs in pet homes, there would be loads of variables and things which would make it almost impossible to do I'd imagine. I'm only just starting out on the research side of things and still learning but that's how I understand it so far

Wys
x
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Lotsadogs
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22-05-2009, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post

Re the dogs in pet homes, there would be loads of variables and things which would make it almost impossible to do I'd imagine. I'm only just starting out on the research side of things and still learning but that's how I understand it so far

Wys
x
Exactly! Which is why none of the studies doen so far, trully relates to pet dogs......
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Gnasher
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22-05-2009, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
I may have confused things, the feral dogs I believe were not used by the authors of the study but they comment on previous studies done on them in the light of newer information as I understand it. These are very highly respected people in their field, very highly respected

Re the dogs in pet homes, there would be loads of variables and things which would make it almost impossible to do I'd imagine. I'm only just starting out on the research side of things and still learning but that's how I understand it so far

Wys
x
Still haven't done the reading Wys, but I have got as far as printing the Abstract !! It's a start.

The point you make in your final paragraph is exactly my point, which is why for sure the researchers used dogs from the Rescue Home ... but it doesn't excuse or make up for the fact that this means the research is flawed.

The equivalent analogy would be David Mech ... instead of living for tens of summers on Ellesmere Island with wild wolves ... choosing to live in the enclosure with Shaun Ellis's wolves at Coombe Martin because it was easier and a darn site less hostile.
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Pidge
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22-05-2009, 05:55 PM
Good. I see this as a positive start in getting the word out and changing people's views.

Lives would be alot easier all round had this knowledge been more common from the start. I speak from experience.
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mike_c
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22-05-2009, 05:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I do not think it is scientific though, Mike, to take an unrepresentative group of dogs ... feral ... and another unrepresentative group of dogs ... rescues in a rescue home ... and base scientific research on these two groups, then !

Neither is representative of happy, well socialised, well balanced dogs.

I would like you to show me the link where CM strangles a dog such that the blood flow is disrupted to the dog's brain !! That sounds horrendous. I have watched every single episode almost of the Dog Whisperer, some many times over, and I do not recall that one. The link would be much appreciated, thanks.

The study is looking at social interactions between individuals in a stable group of feral and previously owned dogs, so in both cases it would need to use dogs in one location that know each other, so that the relative interactions between them could be studied over a long period of time. A 'random' sample' of dogs from different places put together would surely be a less useful study group?

For the links to CM
See:
American Humane complained about it:
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html
(but you probably don't believe them either?)

[link to site containing a dog forum removed]

...and someone else who saw it:
http://www.yelp.com/topic/anaheim-ce...iques-inhumane (look for 'blood' again).
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Gnasher
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22-05-2009, 05:59 PM
Originally Posted by mike_c View Post
The study is looking at social interactions between individuals in a stable group of feral and previously owned dogs, so in both cases it would need to use dogs in one location that know each other, so that the relative interactions between them could be studied over a long period of time. A 'random' sample' of dogs from different places put together would surely be a less useful study group?

For the links to CM
See:
American Humane complained about it:
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html
(but you probably don't believe them either?)
[link to site containg dog forum removed]
and look for the word 'blood', although the rest of the article is quite interesting too...

...and someone else who saw it:
http://www.yelp.com/topic/anaheim-ce...iques-inhumane (look for 'blood' again).

thanks for the links, that's great, and I'll have a read.

I totally disagree that dogs in the stressful environment of a rescue home are necessarily going to be stable ! Everything I have ever seen in rescue homes has been just the opposite, as I described in a previous thread.
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Gnasher
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22-05-2009, 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by mike_c View Post
The study is looking at social interactions between individuals in a stable group of feral and previously owned dogs, so in both cases it would need to use dogs in one location that know each other, so that the relative interactions between them could be studied over a long period of time. A 'random' sample' of dogs from different places put together would surely be a less useful study group?

For the links to CM
See:
American Humane complained about it:
http://www.americanhumane.org/about-...whisperer.html
(but you probably don't believe them either?)

[link removed]
...and someone else who saw it:
http://www.yelp.com/topic/anaheim-ce...iques-inhumane (look for 'blood' again).
Mike : with the greatest respect, this is all anecdotal evidence ! Are there no clips from the actual programme where we saw CM using these "strangling" techniques?

I'm sorry to be cynical, but no, I won't accept what you or anyone else says without the evidence.

If it is true, and I am reserving judgement until I see the evidence with my own eyes, it is appalling.
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