A dog like that should not be off-lead at all in my opinion. I would certainly never risk having a dog that was out of control in that respect off-lead; to do so would be irresponsible.

I think I agree with most of what you are saying - the vast majority of dogs are motivated by something, and any aversives (eg 'No') must be used in conjunction with whatever positive technique works on the dog, but my point was that with the dog I described you will presumably need to use some aversives (not the collars obviously) along with the mainly positive training.

I really don't like headcollars because of the way they can twist a dog's head round causing neck injuries. If the dog is running at speed at the end of a long line (or even lunging at the end of a standard lead) the sharp jerk can cause injury, and pain.

I only use a headcollar for close control. I would NEVER use a headcollar with a long line or a flexi type of lead. If I have a dog on a long line or a flexi they always have a harness on and the lead is attached to that. I don't even use a normal collar wiht a long line or flexi because of the damage that they can cause.
I use a headcollar only on a short lead...and only very gently.

If sheep worrying was a dog's only issue off lead, and other than that it had perfect recall/behaviour, I do not think it is fair on a dog to condemn it to a life on lead.

I think that there is only so far that a longline can take you as some dogs behave impeccably with the line is on but revert to previous behaviour when they know it is off. I agree that the training the people in your link do sounds good, and seems preferable to the e-collar (not having seen the training, I can't obviously form a solid opinion), but these trainers are very few and far between and not everyone has the resources (time wise and financial) to take their dog there.

Well as there are sheep everywhere out in the countryside, they are kind of unavoidable. I wouldn't consider a dog that will 'bolt across fields' to get to sheep as safe to have off-lead even with an e-collar. A collar is just a piece of equipment and can fail.

The very high drive, strong dogs don't need aversives any more than the average dog, but what they do need is someone who is knowledgeable in training of positive methods including how to give consequences and how to motivate

Those who use aversive equipment pretend it's the only way - usually these are the same people who believe in being dominant over the dog or see the dog as being wilful when in fact it doesn't understand.

wys
x

Good post!

Computer crashed when I was typing here so I cant rem who I am replying to

I try and train with only positive methods
I know I am human and sometimes I will loose my rag a wee bit - so I try and make sure that all my training is positive - and I find the less I yell the more of an impact it can make in a true emergancy - like Ben was about to run after a cat when there was an edjit on a quad bike - I yelled 'STOP' - and although Ben does not know the command he stoped to see why I was yelling

I have been v lucky with my dogs and I KNOW that you can teach just about anything positivly

Ben, hated being touched, food, anything - I spent time with him, sleeping on the sofa together, found really stinky food he would like and used it to teach toy motivation, food motivation and to like working with me
He is a v 'soft' dog, tried hard to please and any idea that he has done something wrong and he heads back into his shell - I use a non reward noise - and give him the chance to do the right thing, his brain starts working and he is happy to do the right thing

Mia
Came to me NO training, no idea of self control, hyper and ott
If you try and tell her off she gets v excited and bounces all over you with kisses - any attention is good attention eh?
She is also the dog that climbed a wall and wriggled tru 2 electric fences to get to a field of sheep - so I doubt that a e - collar would have much inpact on her - she did feel the pain cos we had to open the gate to get her out - but the drive to get at the sheep was more important

I have taught her rules and boundries - that working with me is fun
If she is lunging or pulling on the lead there is no correction - I just stand still until she calms down - then reward- they learn their actions cause us to be able to move forwards or not
If they dont sit I just wait - try pushing their bums and they just look at you

as far as I see it the sheep thing is just a high distraction recal - you build up to it - one day I hope Mias recal will be good enough - but until then unless I know there are no sheep then she is on lead

Sorry but as far as I can see if you have to resort to bullying your dog its cos you dont have the imagination to figure out how to train it - force and punishment are not training - they are what we do when we cant think of the right thing to do!

Ug! Frawley is such a fraud and a monster. He makes CM look like a cupcake!

Can I just say, as an American, that his methods are NOT the norm over here. They SHOULD be banned as animal cruelty. No trainer worth his salt uses these methods. I remember coming across this site when I was about 19 and new to dog training and it about put me off of it for life, but in ten years of training and competeing in dog events I have NEVER met ANYONE who approved of or used his methods. They are outdated at best, and cruel and unusual at worst. His thinking is barbaric and lacks any kind of sensabliity.

The dominance dog collar is barbaric. I feel the same way about prong collars, I suppose they have their place, but there are so MANY options out there now that are more humane and just as effective, I don't see why you would use something to cause pain.

The only reason I would ever use a shock collar would be in snake training, and only because teaching a dog to leave a rattlesnake alone in Texas could well save its life some day. I guess it would go along the same lines as your sheep chasers in the UK. But for everyday training, no way !

But if people have the resources to go out and buy and ecollar...and a trainer to teach them how to use it, then surely they have the time to go to someone like the lady I suggested in the link?
If people aren't willing to put in the time then they shouldn't have the dog. Harsh perhaps...but most training takes a great deal of time and patience.