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Borderdawn
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16-11-2006, 12:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Satunr still has his furry plums Dawn and very proud of them he is too!!!!
Neither of my own dogs were castrated until there was a NEED, Mo was castrated this Feb at almost 9 years of age, as he had prostate problems, which would probably never have happened had I had him neutered when younger, but I didn't. He's now fine.
I know he has them Ramble, they look lovely on him! but he would of been neutered (unesessarily IMO) should he of failed his assessment.

I can only comment on the dockings I have been present at, and in 18yrs I have not seen anything to consitute, distress or pain to the mother or the puppies, and that is the truth. I dont doubt as in all things, the wally brigade will screw things up, they always do.
Dawn.

Oh meant to say, the vets told me my Border (then 11) had an enlarged prostate and he should be castrated, I doubted this and sought a second opinion, strangely enough the other Vet disagreed and the reason for his problems was Potatoes!
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Patch
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16-11-2006, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Yet (and not be funny either ) you were quite happy for Saturn to undergo an unecessary GA to be castrated when there is NOTHING wrong with the dog! It comes down to what we see as acceptable doesnt it, you may say if he was neutered he wouldnt get a testicular tumour, if my Dobermann was docked, he wouldnt rip his tail to bits and suffer numerous unecessary GA's to end up with a docked tail!
Dawn.
The statistical and actual instances regarding reproductive organ diseases are astronomical compared to a dog so much as grazing a tail.
Pups by the litter full die from docking. Its very rare for there to be any complications whatsoever, GA or otherwise, from castration.
The anatomical elements involved are far too different to be compared though its common for pro-dockers to try that ever failing and totally unrelated tactical approach.

Of the people I`ve known using their [ tailed ], dogs for hunting activities, they tell me themselves its the dogs ears, heads and paws which sustain damage, not the tails.
An uncle of mine owned a pheasant shoot. His dogs were tailed. They never had tail injuries.
[ He was allowed back in my parents house as a guest when he sold the shoot and turned his back on hunting altogether ]
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Ramble
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16-11-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
I know he has them Ramble, they look lovely on him! but he would of been neutered (unesessarily IMO) should he of failed his assessment.

I can only comment on the dockings I have been present at, and in 18yrs I have not seen anything to consitute, distress or pain to the mother or the puppies, and that is the truth. I dont doubt as in all things, the wally brigade will screw things up, they always do.
Dawn.
they do indeed!!!!!!! Cracking furry plums the boy has!!!!
As for castration of the pups, I have no control over that at all, and so as a result, I can't comment . It's not my call.

It was seen in the past that the fact that the pups will go suckle and then sleep, is an indication that they are happy and not feeling pain. that is now being refuted as pups of that age will suckle for comfort and the actions of suckling and then sleeping could well result in natural anaesthetics being released. Surely if that is the case, if there is a need for any natural anaesthetics to be released, there is pain? On top of that, it is now being suggested, that rather than pups having a less well developed nervous system than adults, they may actually be more reposnsive to pain????
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Luke
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16-11-2006, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post




Hopefully before too long there will be so few available that you will be able to experience owning a Spaniel with the full beauty and normal uses of a fully tailed dog one day :smt001
As i said, only springer i shall ever own (unless a rescue) will be docked. Slightly digressing but what the hey
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Ramble
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16-11-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
As i said, only springer i shall ever own (unless a rescue) will be docked. Slightly digressing but what the hey
In that case luke, I'm guessing there will soon be a time where you will no longer own Springers.
What a shame as you obviously love the breed.
Surely with a tail, there's just a bit more of them to love??

As an aside, I was in the park today with m'laddo and another flattie who is 20 months and who's coat has well and truly grown in. A beautiful flattie boy with a beautiful coat and very long, waggy tail. Flatties have it written into the breed standard that they must have waggy tails. They are naturally exuberant and enthusiastic in everyhting that they do. They are gundogs, but they are not docked (thankfully). Given their beautiful adult coats, temprament and tail, I don't get why they are not in danger (or labs, or goldens) when working in the field, given their size and enthusiasm I would imagine they are more at risk than other breeds???? Thankfully they are not docked. It seems to be one rule for one breed and another for other breeds and it doesn't make sense to me.....
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Luke
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16-11-2006, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
In that case luke, I'm guessing there will soon be a time where you will no longer own Springers.
What a shame as you obviously love the breed.
Surely with a tail, there's just a bit more of them to love??
It's not that I dislike them with a tail-to me they are still the same ditsy dog with the charcter, temperament and look i love-they are 'my' breed that i carew for, and it's due to this latter statement that I have a problem with owning tailed springers-I just don't think i would be happy owning a springer knowing fully what could and most likely would happen to their tail. Also-I intend on working springers (Ralph is in training)-how can they do this with a tail?
I disagree that there will no longer be springers docked-this law is full of loopholes, and pups still will be docked. Probably, as Pod said, with the litter bred as 'working dogs' regardless of whether they actually perform the job-simple then, field type springers will be for me.
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Ramble
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16-11-2006, 12:27 PM
Originally Posted by Luke View Post
It's not that I dislike them with a tail-to me they are still the same ditsy dog with the charcter, temperament and look i love-they are 'my' breed that i carew for, and it's due to this latter statement that I have a problem with owning tailed springers-I just don't think i would be happy owning a springer knowing fully what could and most likely would happen to their tail. Also-I intend on working springers (Ralph is in training)-how can they do this with a tail?
I disagree that there will no longer be springers docked-this law is full of loopholes, and pups still will be docked. Probably, as Pod said, with the litter bred as 'working dogs' regardless of whether they actually perform the job-simple then, field type springers will be for me.

I think it won't take long for loopholes to be well and truly closed though Luke, the act is still a work in progress to an extent. :smt002
i think the links I've shown have shown that studies show that working dogs are no more likely to be injured with or without a tail....
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Borderdawn
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16-11-2006, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by Patch View Post
The statistical and actual instances regarding reproductive organ diseases are astronomical compared to a dog so much as grazing a tail.
Pups by the litter full die from docking. Its very rare for there to be any complications whatsoever, GA or otherwise, from castration.
The anatomical elements involved are far too different to be compared though its common for pro-dockers to try that ever failing and totally unrelated tactical approach.

Of the people I`ve known using their [ tailed ], dogs for hunting activities, they tell me themselves its the dogs ears, heads and paws which sustain damage, not the tails.
An uncle of mine owned a pheasant shoot. His dogs were tailed. They never had tail injuries.
[ He was allowed back in my parents house as a guest when he sold the shoot and turned his back on hunting altogether ]
Were they beating dogs Patch? or did they pick up?

There is NO way I can be conviced that routine castration is necessary and those that think it is are just fooling themselves and I see it as being extremely hypocritical. Bitches die from not being spayed and not from a minute risk such a testicular tumours, from several things, I actually think it irresponsible to keep pet bitches entire, as it DOES pose a risk to THEIR health, the same cannot be said of a dog.

Why would so called "dog lovers" put a healthy dog under GA for no benefit to that animal and say they love it? RHUBARB! its the usual rescues hammering down on folk calling them no more than bad owners, i mean as if everybody who keeps an entire male will let them mate with everything anyway! and of course if the bitches were spayed there would be no call for it anyway and the bitches would be safe because they couldnt get Pyo, Mammary tumours, phantom pregnancies, mastitis............
Dawn.
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pod
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16-11-2006, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
I think it won't take long for loopholes to be well and truly closed though Luke, the act is still a work in progress to an extent.
No, sadly the Bill has gone through the ammendments stage and is now finalised.

There are many other factets to this Bill, and the opportunity to make changes in our treatment of animals (eg in Greyhound racing and puppy farming) has sadly been missed.

I started a thread on it here -

http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php?t=48674
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Ramble
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16-11-2006, 12:42 PM
Sorry...but I think the whole neutering issue is going a little off topic, this is about docking???
BUT I will enter into it for a moment.
My BC has had prostate problems, as I mentioned. This was entirely as a result of still having his testicles and yes, he suffered a bit as the problem built up gradually. He has been a great deal happier since being neutered. This is something the vets see a great deal of, having his testicles made him ill. I didn't put him into any work or social situation that made him need to lose his testicles...he got ill as a direct result of still having them and to be honest, having seen how miserable he was, I would now be in favour of neutering male dogs from a relatively early age (ie 9 months +). That's just my opinion. There are definite health reasons for neutering Dawn and my mo proved that. I wouldn't want another dog of mine to be put through it. Nor would I want another dog of mine to have to be put through a GA at 9, when it is more risky, than a GA at 9 months +. Just my opinion.
I also think neutering and docking are 2 entirely different and incomparable things. My BC's body, the actual testicles, made him ill, nothing else. Therefore I would consider removing testicles as they can make a dog ill. I would not think it's the same at all with docking. In that case, you remove a vital body part 'just in case' it gets hurt ...not the same IMO i would be removing testicles as the chances are they would ultimately make my dog ill..most unneutered dogs end up with prostate problems..
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