I think it would change if it had its own section because people would be able to talk freely about using their dogs to kill other animals and if I disagree and wanted to make comment about that I would be told just don't read it then if it upsets you

I think it would also promote something I don't believe in

If there had been a section like this before I went to join I would have seen that and decided against joining - now its being talked about as being added and I say I am not happy about it I don't want to be a part of it why does this make me wrong?

I cannot be part of something I don't believe in and I wouldn't expect any-one else to be a part of something they don't believe in

Neither are okay Emm. I hate to hear about wild animals being killed under the banner of 'hunting' and all it encompasses. I think there are some right-minded people who enjoy the work and feel they are achieving a service at the same time, but I know there are also those who are dispassionate about wild animals. I also realise a need for culling these days - some of this has come about because, through hunting, we eradicated natural predators - although I don't particularly want to have anything to do with it.

This argument seems to be repeating itself though - some say it's about culling or putting sick animals out of their misery, others say this not true and that healthy animals die too and there are kinder ways than hounding with dogs. I don't think the hunting people will ever convince the anti-hunting fraternity or vice versa.

I understand your position, that you don't want to be part of a website that is linked in some way to something you find unacceptable and it's perhaps not just about 'not reading' hunting posts but the fact that Dogweb would be associated with something you find terribly distressing and wrong.

I am feeling torn too. But if you leave who will 'speak' for the other side?

Hi Lucky Star - thanks for the post - who will speak for the other side? I don't know that is what at the moment is tearing me apart

Would I even get the chance to speak for the other side if they had their own section? I don't know

I also agree with you it is going round in circles

Emm, hounds and gundogs are not used to kill other animals, they are used to assist the hunter. In my way of thinking it is far better for the animal that is to be dispatched to be shot whilst grazing than put in a truck and driven miles to wait overnight in the holding bay of a slaughterhouse, must say as a sometime meat eater that aspect of farmed food worries me, I just can't see any more practical way, just as I can't see a better way of maintaining the health and well being of the animals in the countryside than the one we use now. But I am open to suggestions.

When it comes to vermin control where it is mostly terriers used then you are right dogs are used to kill, again much quicker and kinder than poison and less likely to cause problems to other animals. Supose it comes down to how you feel about traps and poison and your experiance of the need for control for everyones well being including the animals involved.

Once again a thread has been about who we as individuals and our way of life. Could we agree to disagree that we all lead diff lifestyles and that are views on how to get food on the table, controlling the population, etc, are different?

This thread was supposed to be about how we can make a section work in a way that we all can accept. What should and shouldn't be accepted as topics.

Now we are still missing Borderdawns reply and I hope after that has been posted and read by all who are interested, that we can talk restrictions, rules, compromises and respect.


LS: I will reply to your Q´s in a pm as they are not about what should be allowed in a working/hunting/retrieving/whatever we will call it thread.

AMTS think this is more about understanding of terms and needs than it is about how dogs are used.

Must say I am happy for the working section to cover all working dogs but am not at all sure that those who’s work involves field work should be shunted into a section away form prying eyes, it would not be of any use to anyone just to talk amongst themselves. Had the original Working section not included the words (not hunting) this whole matter would not have arisen and I doubt anyone would have talked about any thing that would offend.

I don't think any of us are saying that hunting dogs are NOT working dogs!!!! What AM does with Ally is WORK!! Borderdawn's Terriers WORK!!! And naturally Elkhounds are working dogs!! I am not denying that! I am not saying anything against hunting at all!!!

But I think what we from the "other" side of working (for me it's just cause I don't have a hunting dog) are trying to say is that now in THIS day and age, hunting is not really hunting anymore. And I mean that as in the origional sense of the word (hunters/gatherers hunting for a purpose, to feed their family) not in going out and actually catching & killing prey. People aren't really hunting with the dog, it's a sport, I say that because people do it because they ENJOY being out there and working with their dog, not because they need food or skins or to kill a dangerous and threatening predator!!

Now, I'm not slurring hunting dogs!! And when my Tam starts ratting in a disused barn I enjoy watching him! Not because of the killing either, just he is doing what he enjoys and therefore that is for him, "work"!! And for me as well, as I'd much rather have the quick death from a ratting dog than putting poison down, and how else would the rats/mice be exterminated? It's the same with rabbiting! With overpopulation it's far better to send a Dachshund or a Jack Russell into the hole and finish the job quickly rather than gassing the rabbits out.

And that brings me to the subject of something said in Thordells thread below. Hunting dogs are not the only "working" breeds. Livestock Guardian breeds work independantly and they are a necessity to farmers living in areas with a high predator population!! http://www.lgd.org/ And herding breeds are very much working dogs http://www.herdingontheweb.com/ , it's not all One Man and His Dog.

Police, army and tracking is also "work" no matter what you say!!!

My point is also, there are about 2 or 3 times more Hunting dogs than LGDs or Herding dogs. So why not have a section of your own? And leave this one to the minority

Thanks gordon lover, some good points.

Just want to say - thanks to all for keeping this reasonable and respectful.

Hello to you all.


AMTS has put forward an honest and truthful account of what goes on in her field of work, I will do the same.

For the most part my Terriers are my companions and pets, first and foremost, always will be. However I do offer a service to people, which is the most humane option for all concerned. A farmyard, a barn, a hay store, whatever it may be, is a haven for the wild Rat, an animal which carries a lot of diseases, some which are transmittable to humans. Do they have a right to live on this earth? Of course they do, but looking at it logically they do need to be controlled in some manner. In my work, my dogs are taught from puppies to respect livestock, be sociable and controllable around other peoples property, the “work” is never taught it is natural breed instinct. This training takes months, tireless trips to farms and such like, meeting livestock and getting the dogs to be comfortable around them, constant socialising and being able to have control of your dog, and at the end of the day having a well balanced, well behaved dog that is a pleasure to own.

We could of course poison the Rats that are breeding, defecating and urinating on the foodstuffs fed to livestock, but its just not humane, Cats, Dogs, Birds and other animals will most certainly suffer as a result, and how fair is it to the Rat? The poisons used cause internal bleeding, and finally the Rat will be knocked, bumped etc.. and its insides will burst, this to me is definitely not humane, furthermore it can take days for the animal to reach this point.

I do not favour shooting Rats either, there are just too many, they move so quick, some will die quickly, some will escape back down holes and die a lingering death, I feel this is certainly not acceptable, and I would not wish to take part in it.

So we look at Terrier work, typically the hay bales are moved around and the resident Rats start to move, a Terrier is quick and grabs it, one shake and its dead, and I mean in a second! There is no suffering, there is no lingering death, there are no poisonous substances being used causing untold agony, the Rat is dead in a flash or escapes totally unharmed. There is no half measures with dogs, they are designed to do the job, if they were not efficient they would not be used. Do I enjoy watching it? I enjoy watching my dogs work, yes, is it a pleasant job? no! Lumping bales of hay and silage around, the filth off the Rats everywhere, the Rats themselves running all over the place, whoever thinks this is a treat is very much mistaken. You stink, get filthy and are positively shattered at the end of it! It is a natural and efficient way of controlling a problem, I, to this day have not found a more humane method.

The benefits to the local wildlife is clear to see too, there are no poisoned creatures dying because they have eaten something left for another species, the farmer is happy as his vermin numbers are reduced, and we should feel happier knowing no obnoxious chemicals may get into the foodstuffs fed to livestock.

I take a lot of pride in my breed and its heritage, I feel honoured to have dogs that live with me, who are PAT dogs, who I show, race and work, and at the end of the day sleep on my bed. I would like to be able to share this information with people should they wish to know about it.

Dawn.