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JoedeeUK
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27-08-2008, 10:44 AM
Originally Posted by Magic View Post
Hi,

Still stumbling around here and trying to get the 'multi quote' and 'part quote' bits right, any tips anyone?

In response to the issue raised in the op, JoedeeUK, did your German friend feel safe with his trained BC, bearing in mind you have specified that the schutzhund dog is trained to focus on the sleeve and not the man?
Yes she did, he was also a breed champion & yet could do the stand off & hold(dog must not touch the helper) Most people are rather scared of a dog that barks at them on command & do not realise that a barking dog is not an attacking dog, dogs will warn by growling & being silent in the chase, they do not bark as the hunt.

If you are looking for a personal protection dog I would be very very careful, no matter what an assailant does to you, if your dog breaks the skin then you can be presecuted under the DDA if the assailant sues you
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IsoChick
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27-08-2008, 10:48 AM
I've watched some of the ATIBOX stuff on YouTube and would love my boys to do that.... sadly Max certainly hasn't the right temperament and I suspect Murphy is too "nice but dim" to do it
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cava14una
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27-08-2008, 10:52 AM
Do the British Boxer Club still do temperament tests??
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hades
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27-08-2008, 11:35 AM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
Schutzhund does require dogs of 110% temperament & control.

I've had both Schutzhund trained dogs & WT PD trained dogs

In Schutzhund the dog will be failed for not releasing more than one that isn't a hard biter of the sleeve. It isn't a case on the dog attacking the helper it's the sleeve the dog has to focua on.

My German friend, Petra, breeding Schutzhund GSDs, works Schutzhund GSDs, Judges Schutzhund GSDs & is also involved with Search & rescue dogs(again these dogs have to have 110 % temperament.)

Dogs have to pass the BH before they are allowed to start protection training. The BH is a basic test of temperament & character & working drive. Schutzhund isn't just about the protection work, it aims to test the dogs full working ability.

The dogs need to be very steady in temperament & this is why one of my reason for liking Schutzhund bred GSDs is their temperament & chacters add the high working drive & IMHO you have the complete working dogs
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
To actually start the basic training it needs to begin in puppyhood, the way that all dogs should have basic "obedience"training. So as early as possible.

There are no hard & fast rules to breed-the main consideration is the temperament of the dog-it has to be 110% reliable-no weakness at all, friendly to all & equally important is total obedience control. It is these three things are musts. No dog can be too friendly(no matter what UK Police & Service dog sections believe)

There will be no change to the dogs personality as long as the training is done correctly.

Each stage of Schutzhund includes a temperament test & failing at this level means no further participation in the trials. There is no such test in UK WT.

My German friend trained a farm bred ISDS BC to Schutzhund III. He didn't become person or dog aggressive as the protection test is focused on the sleeve & not the helper
Good post very informative!
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5dog
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27-08-2008, 07:37 PM
[QUOTE=JoedeeUK;1468142]
No dog can be too friendly(no matter what UK Police & Service dog sections believe)



What does that mean??
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JoedeeUK
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27-08-2008, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by 5dog View Post
What does that mean??
They often reject dogs because they say the dogs are too friendly & lack drive & then when they get a dog with real drive they reject that too if it has a really good temperament. One of my dogs(as a puppy) went to Lincolnshire police after he was rejected(as a puppy)on the initial visit by Northants police, because he preferred to play tuggy with a hessian sack & didn't growl & snarl enough . Lincolnshire police jumped at the chance of a well bred german bloodline puppy, he was an ace Police dog licenced right up until he retired @ 10 & never lost his wonderful temperament, his protection work was trained as in Schutzhund & he actually saved his handler's life on more than one occasion. They used to have terrible problems in Lincoln Town/City centre over New Year, after Schutz's 1st year on duty there all problems ceased. He was a very bold dog, jet black & was @ the top of the breed standard in hieght. He really did look the business & yet when he did his school visits he was as gentle as a lamb.
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Anne-Marie
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28-08-2008, 04:02 PM
I wouldn't train Marius in Schutzhund or Protection training. Just not interested in that side of things TBH.

I do greatly admire them though and love to watch clips on the net of a well-trained dog. Some really are amazing


Originally Posted by Magic View Post
Hi,

Still stumbling around here and trying to get the 'multi quote' and 'part quote' bits right, any tips anyone?
If you click the quote button on the bottom of someones post it will bring up the quote of that one person. Multi-quote allows you to do quotes from more than one persons posts if that helps?
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5dog
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28-08-2008, 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by JoedeeUK View Post
They often reject dogs because they say the dogs are too friendly & lack drive & then when they get a dog with real drive they reject that too if it has a really good temperament. One of my dogs(as a puppy) went to Lincolnshire police after he was rejected(as a puppy)on the initial visit by Northants police, because he preferred to play tuggy with a hessian sack & didn't growl & snarl enough . Lincolnshire police jumped at the chance of a well bred german bloodline puppy, he was an ace Police dog licenced right up until he retired @ 10 & never lost his wonderful temperament, his protection work was trained as in Schutzhund & he actually saved his handler's life on more than one occasion. They used to have terrible problems in Lincoln Town/City centre over New Year, after Schutz's 1st year on duty there all problems ceased. He was a very bold dog, jet black & was @ the top of the breed standard in hieght. He really did look the business & yet when he did his school visits he was as gentle as a lamb.
All I can say is OH DEAR
I would never reject a dog because its too friendly, a police dog should be balanced and acceptable of people. If it has no drive then yes I wouldnt accept it, it can cause problems later in training.
Not taking it because it prefers to tug a toy, that is madness as all police dog training is based on the dogs drive for a toy, and to want a dog that snarls and growls, Oh dear again! a dog growling on a sleeve is very often a nervous dog not confident.
To completely train a police dog in Schutzhund is not the best idea either as, has already been stated Schutzhund is a sport and the dog is tuned to the sleeve not the man, not the best for police work.
Another reason is in Schutzhund the decoy is the most important, he will correct the dog if its wrong. In police work if a decoy(criminal) tried to correct my dog I would expect said decoy (criminal) to be visiting the nearest AE department.

Unfortunately some police dog sections are stuck in a rut. Traditional methods are used again and again.
I prefer to train dogss in ways that work, I use some tips from Shutzhund, from KNPV and from ring sport as well as some good old things you pick up on operational jobs type training. Although I use ideas taken from the above sports, I would not and do not use their training methods.

Finally your dog sounded a cracker, what a missed opertunity for that first force.
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Heldengebroed
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28-08-2008, 05:31 PM
I train Belgian Ring the oldest police dog training in the world.
I don't let my dogs with kids. Not because they are dangerous but because i know what they can do. If they attack they mean business and gladly would put someone in hospital. Unfortunately that has happened in the past. When i was attacked my dog stood at my side and did the "job"
Training begins at age of 6 weeks and consists only out of biting, biting and biting.
Only when they are teething does obedience come in the picture.
Until about 10 months it is playing. When they matured enough pressure comes into the equation. and at 24 months they know the routine. It takes another year to get them to competition level

http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance...j_nvbk-1_sport

This is a demo done last year in France

Greetigns

Johan
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5dog
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28-08-2008, 06:22 PM
What other disiplines do these dogs do.
Tracking, searching?
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