I did say I am not an expert! My point was that as such an intelligent species it should be possible for experts to be able to devise a form of control of animals such as foxes that is acceptable to all concerned, foxes included. I don't know what form that should take, I am not a zoologist. I just do not believe in culling, simply because it is unacceptable to Joe public, it doesn't work because you can never ensure that you have culled sufficient numbers of sufficient type (ie the older/infirm specimens) and because we are not setting a good example to countries like Kenya where we frown upon big game being shot for trophies.

I specifically said that the main thing I have against fox hunting with hounds is that most, if not all hunts indulge in the despicable practice of blocking up natural escape routes. Clearly, you agree with this practice otherwise you would have said that you agreed with me. Fox hunting is supposed to be a sport - the thrill of the chase, the fact that the odds are equal. In fact, the odds are in favour of the fox if he is healthy because he knows the lay of his land like the back of his pad, he knows where his earth is, where there are disused badger setts and other hiding places large enough for a fox to go to earth in. Where's the sport when the fox has nowhere to go? One fox against a pack of fox hounds is not very good odds if the fox cannot employ his considerable intelligence and wiliness to escape with his life. In my grandfather's time, back in the 20's and 30's before WW2 any hunt indulging in such practice would have been drummed out of existence. It is cruel and unfair.

My dogs hunting a herbivore such as a rabbit is incomparable to a fox being hunted by hounds. Rabbits are prey animals, they are used every second of their lives to have to be on alert for foxes, buzzards, kites, mink, polecats, stoats, weasels, you name it, they have to be alert for it. Foxes are predators, they are carnivores and apart from man and badgers, don't have much to worry about in terms of their survival. Therefore the stress caused to them by being chased by a pack of fox hounds is un-natural, it is man made, albeit a human past-time that has been around for a very long time so presumably foxes now hare beginning to build up a genetic awareness of the significance of a hunting horn. There is a mountainous difference between a herbivore being pursued by dogs, and a fox being pursued by hounds and humans on horseback.

Yes, but foxes were once prey, and to a certain extent, they still are. Whenever, I've seen a fox, it acts exactly like a prey species would act.

I've never heard this before:

I'm not saying you are wrong, just that I have never heard it before. I can't personally see the difference, see above comments.

I didn't think this was a topic about foxhunting, rather about fox control?

Helen

I adore foxes. They make noises here too. I don't mind they are as entitled to be living as I am.

I think it is arrogant to assume we are the most intelligent creatures on earth, let alone the best predators. If we were as intelligent as we like to think we are we surely would have planned ahead better instead of killing the planet that supports us!

Hunting is an awful 'sport' I will never see the attraction of killing things for fun.

I never said I was an expert either, but given the options, and weighing up the different effects on individuals and species overall, I prefer culling as a method of number control, than altering all breeding age adults that are capable of reproducing.

You've said a few times you are against your local hunt blocking up escape routes for dens/setts. That does not answer the question of how the fox perceives the chase, it simply makes people feel better that foxes do not run to a hole, and then run again if they find it's blocked. And that is the key issue, a fox doesn't stop at a blocked hole, turn to the hounds and decry the hunt as being unfair, it lives or dies by whatever life throws in it's way, and flight has been, and will always bee, an important part of a wild animals' nature. It is healthy for wild animals to fear what may harm them.

Explain the difference between how a rabbit feels between being pursued, to how a fox feels from being pursued. Or is the difference in your perception only?

Intelligence and ethics are two separate issues, you can have both in different amounts, and lets not forget much of the world is *less civilised* according to our western views. We are definitely the most intelligent creatures, but that does not guarantee we are also the most ethical of creatures.

Couldn't agree more, live and let live I say! Blimey, I wouldn't even kill a spider outdoors because it has every right to be there, just like I do. I don't like us killing any other species, hunting them down or culling them, I never understand how we think we have the right to kill any living, breathing creature, except if it's an annoying fly or wasp that is!

Spoken from someone who used to hunt on horseback many moons ago Wouldn't do it now, I've seen some terrible blood lusting antics! The best one was when we were foot following one day, and as the hunt made their way across a big ploughed field in persuit of what they thought was their kill......there in the bushes nearby was the fox, panting and sweating, but he did have a wry smile on his face

Definitely the most intelligent? I suppose that depends upon how you measure intelligence; what your markets are? If ou define intelligence by an IQ test determined and written by humans then clearly humans will do better than other species. That is arrogant in itself though isn't it! To measure intelligence of other species on our terms... The more like us they are the more intelligent?

I would never claim to be more intelligent than another species. I am just different.

Clearly my proof reading should be better! Markers, you

Bless that fox!

So it's ok to kill a fly or wasp that's causing you a personal inconvenience at one moment in time, but it's not ok to implement a culling programme to ensure a population of animals remains at the right level for the area they live in, so that they are healthy?

Skewed logic to me I'm afraid. If that were the last fly of a particular species, or the last wasp, would that make a difference, or are you just anti fly/wasp? The unfortunate fact is, red foxes are just not rare, perhaps a victim of their own success in recent years. What makes them different from other less fluffy but more endangered species?