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Adam P
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06-04-2010, 07:52 PM
Tassle
I don't believe they ever told him off in any way, he certainly showed no suck up behaviour to anyone when I was there. They said when they caught him after doing it they just walked him home, didn't shout/hit/scruff ect. They're good owners and understand timing.

Emma

1. Krusewalkers study is good example.

2. I believe they can get confused with any method but I find e collars one of the least likely to cause this.

3. They don't require split second accuracy, there one of the easyist tools to use in that respect as you reinforcing with them not punishing, now clickers (which I also use) do require virtually split second accuracy.

4. No they emit discomfort.

5. There are negative results with any method. Probably more so with pr than e collars because more dogs are trained pr.

6.Articles find, not very helpful for someone with a problem though is it?

7. Brand does't matter as long as you find first level.

8. Most rescues don't do much training as their rescues not trainers. Some rescues approve of them.

Nr is discussed again and again, once again I will say when you stop the sensation the dog knows thats the right behaviour because it dislikes the sensation. This is standard pressure and release and excatly the same isused with horses ellies ect. An animal will always seek comfort, e collar training makes comfort obviouse and obtainable.

Misflyn

I'll keep on as long as people keep wanting info.

Wilbar

Qualified about three years ago, was anti e collar at the time. But negative reinforcement was covered in our lectures.

Success means nothing if its not applicable to the situations I work in, see post about gsd with dog aggression.

Shona

Your right qualifications mean little to me success in what I do matters. That is why I got into e collars as they allowed me to achieve kind and effective success with my cases.

Sibevibe

I believe as e collars become more popular and as northern breeds become more popular more dogs will be trained with them.

Having a different conversation with these folks would not have helped their dog. Which is what really matters.

Adam
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SibeVibe
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06-04-2010, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe

I believe as e collars become more popular and as northern breeds become more popular more dogs will be trained with them.

Having a different conversation with these folks would not have helped their dog. Which is what really matters.

Adam
And that's what concerns breed clubs and welfare organisations. Northern breeds flooding the pet market being exposed to this training method from novice owners. Not every owner will seek the services of someone like yourself.

Your right Adam. The folks would probably not have taken on board what was said. They are only prepared/able to let the lad off lead around livestock. My views on e-collar training aside, and with a firm understanding of the training methods you have taken the time to explain, I agree with you. The future of the pet Siberian will be e-collar training with little respect shown for it ancestory.

Extreme sled dogs - extreme training.

Least we can beg to differ

Take care.

Seoniad.
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Emma
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07-04-2010, 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Tassle
I don't believe they ever told him off in any way, he certainly showed no suck up behaviour to anyone when I was there. They said when they caught him after doing it they just walked him home, didn't shout/hit/scruff ect. They're good owners and understand timing.

Emma

1. Krusewalkers study is good example.

2. I believe they can get confused with any method but I find e collars one of the least likely to cause this.

3. They don't require split second accuracy, there one of the easyist tools to use in that respect as you reinforcing with them not punishing, now clickers (which I also use) do require virtually split second accuracy.

4. No they emit discomfort.

5. There are negative results with any method. Probably more so with pr than e collars because more dogs are trained pr.

6.Articles find, not very helpful for someone with a problem though is it?

7. Brand does't matter as long as you find first level.

8. Most rescues don't do much training as their rescues not trainers. Some rescues approve of them.

Nr is discussed again and again, once again I will say when you stop the sensation the dog knows thats the right behaviour because it dislikes the sensation. This is standard pressure and release and excatly the same isused with horses ellies ect. An animal will always seek comfort, e collar training makes comfort obviouse and obtainable.

Misflyn

I'll keep on as long as people keep wanting info.

Wilbar

Qualified about three years ago, was anti e collar at the time. But negative reinforcement was covered in our lectures.

Success means nothing if its not applicable to the situations I work in, see post about gsd with dog aggression.

Shona

Your right qualifications mean little to me success in what I do matters. That is why I got into e collars as they allowed me to achieve kind and effective success with my cases.

Sibevibe

I believe as e collars become more popular and as northern breeds become more popular more dogs will be trained with them.

Having a different conversation with these folks would not have helped their dog. Which is what really matters.

Adam
I was actually wanting the studies you had researched during uni or the year of investigating whether to use them or not, but it is a start, I guess.
As for the accuracy, you said it all happens within 2-3 seconds, from the pull of the collar until the release of the button, I would think that would need split second accuracy.
What you call discomfort, I call pain, it is just semantics, the electrical impulse causes pain.
If the brands have no standard of electrical impulse it releases, how can it not matter?? One could be on the first level and send out the pain another brand could be on three for the same level of impulse released!!
No real questions there, thanks for the discussion Adam



Mishflynn - sorry to have bored you, it was not ever going to achieve a result, it was based on asking a person who uses them, as to how they came to the conclusion of their decision and more, no answer would ever adequately change my belief of them, just as I am sure Adam would not change his. Just trying to pick his brain and see where he comes from with his view. I see his method flawed just as he may view mine to be, but there is no reason you can't discuss things (even if they bore others) on topics you don't agree on.
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Wysiwyg
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07-04-2010, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
....Nr is discussed again and again, once again I will say when you stop the sensation the dog knows thats the right behaviour because it dislikes the sensation.
And for some dogs the "sensation" is extremely painful - you can see this on dogs in the US, trained in exactly the same way as you are doing, and yes, with trainers who claim the dog is not hurting...

This is standard pressure and release and excatly the same isused with horses ellies ect.
No Adam, this is incorrect. Yes, it is -R but no, its' not at all the same as what is done with elephants. I've already told you this, yet you persist.

The elephants are trained using a lot of positive reinforcement, plus the flat of the hand calmly on their necks as pressure and release (technically, -R).They are totally free to come and go as they please, and they often choose to stay and have fun being trained

The dogs on the other hand are feeling an electric "stimulation" and have to work out how to avoid it (how stressful is that!) and are NOT free to come and go as they please.

It also seems that many ecollar users work the dogs for a long time, rather than a few minutes at at a time. Too too stressful IMO.

Wys
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wilbar
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07-04-2010, 07:05 AM
Well I must admit that I admire you Adam for keep coming back here to defend your use of ecollars in the face of such huge oppposition.

I don't think I'll ever agree with you that ecollars are only -ve reinforcement, even the way you say you use them. As far as I'm concerned, they are +ve punishment, i.e. they inflict pain, they add something aversive. It's only when the shock stops AND the dog works out what it has done that makes the shock stop AND the dog reliably performs that same behaviour to make the shock stop each & every time, that the dog has learned something through -ve reinforcement. But it doesn't detract from the fact that +ve punishment had to be used in the first place, nor does it detract from the fact that this method of trial & error learning does not happen immediately so the dog is subject to a shock over & over again until it eventually works out what it has to do to stop the shock. And during this time the dog is likely to be very scared, in pain & totally confused by what is happening ~ not the ideal conditions for learning something to put it mildly! I don't think my conscience would ever allow me to deliberately do this to a dog.

My only hope is that ecollars are banned throughout the UK (& preferably the world) so that no dogs have to be subjected to this awful way of learning.
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ClaireandDaisy
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07-04-2010, 07:20 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
... the dog is likely to be very scared, in pain & totally confused by what is happening ~ not the ideal conditions for learning something to put it mildly! I don't think my conscience would ever allow me to deliberately do this to a dog.


Which is the whole point, really isn`t it? I could train a dog with kicks and blows... but I don`t because I find the idea of deliberately causing pain revolting. Obviously Adam lacks empathy, and sees nothing wrong with hurting a creature in order to get his own way (achieve a desired behaviour.) I`m slightly surprised that some other people seem to tacitly support his stance TBH.
There is nothing new about using pain to train - old school gundog trainers still do, Mary Chipperfield certainly did, and Essex Police used to before they managed to kill a dog with their methods.
It doesn`t take intelligence or strength to terrify and cow a small animal. The fact that people can make money out torturing dogs into acting a particular way of it I find really disturbing.
I don`t believe Adam has any background in training because he`s a one-trick pony. Not once has he mentioned any other methods. I conclude (until given evidence to the contrary) that he`s an individual who has saved up and bought an electric shock collar and is now making a living using it because reputable trainers won`t.
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wilbar
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07-04-2010, 08:06 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
[/B]

Which is the whole point, really isn`t it? I could train a dog with kicks and blows... but I don`t because I find the idea of deliberately causing pain revolting. Obviously Adam lacks empathy, and sees nothing wrong with hurting a creature in order to get his own way (achieve a desired behaviour.) I`m slightly surprised that some other people seem to tacitly support his stance TBH.
There is nothing new about using pain to train - old school gundog trainers still do, Mary Chipperfield certainly did, and Essex Police used to before they managed to kill a dog with their methods.
It doesn`t take intelligence or strength to terrify and cow a small animal. The fact that people can make money out torturing dogs into acting a particular way of it I find really disturbing.
I don`t believe Adam has any background in training because he`s a one-trick pony. Not once has he mentioned any other methods. I conclude (until given evidence to the contrary) that he`s an individual who has saved up and bought an electric shock collar and is now making a living using it because reputable trainers won`t.
Yes I agree with you ~ but unfortunately some people are taken in by the manufacturers' blurp saying it "doesn't hurt", or it is an "effective & kind way" to train, or that it is 100% reliable etc etc. so they won't see that using ecollars is just the same as a well-aimed kick, or punch, or yank on the lead.

I've seen the way one of my dogs screamed (literally) with pain & fear when he accidentally brushed against an electric fence. No doubt ecollar users & manufacturers will tell me that the strength of the shock in an ecollar is far lower than an electric fence, but without trying it, I don't know that, nor does it guarantee that all ecollars would be used on the lowest settings. And if they're as reliable as Adam says, on the lowest setting, why make ecollars that go an higher than the lowest setting?

Maybe this has been asked before in this thread but has anyone actually used an ecollar on themselves to see what it feels like? And I mean round the neck, not just a quick touch with the tip of the fingers. And possibly get someone else to shock them when they are least expecting it? Maybe then ecollar users will realise what they are subjecting dogs to, and that even if the pain is not huge, the startle factor, rush of adrenalin, body preparing for flight/fight mode, will show them how a dog feels & the horrible emotions that are linked to this eperience. And it takes a surprising amount of time for this feeling to dissipate & for you to feel normal again ~ and during this time all you can think about is "my god, what happened there/!". Not "whoops", mustn't go near that cream cake again!
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Wysiwyg
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07-04-2010, 08:18 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
[/B]

...There is nothing new about using pain to train - old school gundog trainers still do, Mary Chipperfield certainly did, and Essex Police used to before they managed to kill a dog with their methods.
It doesn`t take intelligence or strength to terrify and cow a small animal. The fact that people can make money out torturing dogs into acting a particular way of it I find really disturbing.
....
I agree. I've just been looking at circus animal training and it's mostly not pretty. Mary Chipperfield didn't even regret what she'd done and said she'd do it again I've researched elephants within circus life and traditional life in Asia and both were pretty horrible with the training methods - now, there is more hope and more good things happening to, at least, the Asian elephants and their mahouts with some of the kind training projects, which have been embraced by, for example, the Nepalese


At the end of the day, it is mostly down to personal conscience, ethics, morals etc and one has to choose whether or not to use pain or not, and then of course whether or not using pain is within the law - often, it isn't.

Wys
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SibeVibe
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07-04-2010, 09:18 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post

At the end of the day, it is mostly down to personal conscience, ethics, morals etc and one has to choose whether or not to use pain or not, and then of course whether or not using pain is within the law - often, it isn't.

Wys
x
Totally agree Wys. When e-collars first appeared on the training field I researched and absorbed both the pro's and negatives of their use. Although I had the capacity to understand the theory I felt uncomfortable how this then translated to the dog.

What appears achievable on paper does not necessarily mean it will work in practise.

I don't read research papers on the subject anymore. The dogs I have dealt with exposed to e-collar training had a very clear message. 'We are emotionally broken'.

So once again, well done Wales. Hopefully the rest of the UK will follow their lead.

Take care.

Seoniad.
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Emma
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07-04-2010, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by wilbar View Post
Maybe this has been asked before in this thread but has anyone actually used an ecollar on themselves to see what it feels like? And I mean round the neck, not just a quick touch with the tip of the fingers. And possibly get someone else to shock them when they are least expecting it? Maybe then ecollar users will realise what they are subjecting dogs to, and that even if the pain is not huge, the startle factor, rush of adrenalin, body preparing for flight/fight mode, will show them how a dog feels & the horrible emotions that are linked to this eperience. And it takes a surprising amount of time for this feeling to dissipate & for you to feel normal again ~ and during this time all you can think about is "my god, what happened there/!". Not "whoops", mustn't go near that cream cake again!
I couldn't imagine using it on myself or another person (no matter the temptation). Mind you think we could start a new diet 'The E Collar diet think we could make some money
Seriously I have had static shocks, they hurt, shocked by electric fence, it hurt, had a small electrical shock from a toaster, it hurt. Electric shocks hurt no matter the degree used IMO
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