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Lotsadogs
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29-07-2010, 09:13 AM
Originally Posted by k9ulf View Post
E-collar users like to claim how effective it is. Well, it might be, but in my opinion only a fix on the surface.
I can tell a e-collar trained dog from a mile, their behaviour, bodylanguage and general state of mind differs a lot and the users of these devices either ignore it or they just have no knowledge of the side effects.
I agree it is pretty easy to spot an ecollar trained dog. I have seen it too in several cases. I am not anti-ecollar as such - i believe that in some very specific cases where no alternative is available, and used by a trained proffessonal, they may be of some use. I train large numbers of dogs each week and have seen no need for general use and have also seen some pretty traumatised dogs, on whom they have been used innapropriately - which is very sad to see!
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ClaireandDaisy
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29-07-2010, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by MerlinsMum View Post
(to Krusewalker) So what about the "battering" Adam has given us (and many other people on dog forums all across the net?). Doesn't his dogged insistence of how e-collars are wonderful constitute an onslaught of opinion in its own right? Who exactly is doing the most battering here?
And who is suffering? I would like to remind Krusewalker that AP has boasted of using electric shocks on abused dogs. . Do K`s sensitivities at seeing a fellow under pressure in any way compare to the pain and distress of those animals?
He has also invited new members with difficulties with their dogs to pm him, and also advised the use of an electric shock collar to people without even seeing their dog. Ethical, you think?
Considering you work with rescue dogs, Krusewalker, I find your acceptance of cruelty worrying.
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Tupacs2legs
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29-07-2010, 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by ClaireandDaisy View Post
And who is suffering? I would like to remind Krusewalker that AP has boasted of using electric shocks on abused dogs. . Do K`s sensitivities at seeing a fellow under pressure in any way compare to the pain and distress of those animals?
He has also invited new members with difficulties with their dogs to pm him, and also advised the use of an electric shock collar to people without even seeing their dog. Ethical, you think?
Considering you work with rescue dogs, Krusewalker, I find your acceptance of cruelty worrying.
your forgetting his clients with the mal that wants a pup.. he says he will use the e-collar on the pup from 6 months
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Crysania
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29-07-2010, 09:43 AM
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
Of those, only the electric fence was painful. Of the others, the sensation/stimulus, or electric shock if you prefer, varied from a tickling feel to a mild vibrating. In principle, it is possible to deliver what is correctly termed an electric shock that isn't painful.
I'd imagine with dogs, like people, pain is felt more for some than others. I have felt the shock from an electric fence and it knocked me off my feet with the pain. But I have also gotten quite a few electrostatic shocks, especially in the winter, and I can assure you some of them are quite painful.

The one thing I learned from trying a shock collar is that it hurts "more" (or seems to) when you are not the one controlling the shock. When you control it, you know it's coming and can sort of steel yourself for the pain. When someone else controls it, the surprise of it makes it much worse. The dogs don't know when they're going to get hit with that shock and it likely makes it much worse for them.

I've seen a few dogs being trained with these things and there's no way, from their reactions, that they're not feeling pain.
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ClaireandDaisy
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29-07-2010, 10:11 AM
An e-collar is simply a hands-free version of a club. You shock or thump the dog when it does something you don`t want it to.
Now, for me, the exact pressure of the club smashing into the dog doesn`t really matter that much. (Or the exact degree of pain felt). What matters is that I , if I use the club or the collar, am using violence and pain on a creature I purport to have affection for.
Now, that just doesn`t make any sort of sense to me. Why would you want to hurt your dog?
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Jackie
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29-07-2010, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
your forgetting his clients with the mal that wants a pup.. he says he will use the e-collar on the pup from 6 months
And he is asking on another tread For recommendations for a breeder of mals,for these people . Hands up who is going to help him find a breeder!!
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ClaireandDaisy
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29-07-2010, 10:20 AM
And just before our little friend comes back with the usual lie `it doesn`t hurt` - here is the science...

4.2. Is being shocked painful or just annoying?
Inspection of Table 3, depicting immediate responses of dogs to shocks, shows a number of behaviours, that in the literature are connected to pain, fear and/or submission. Lowering of the components that make up the posture of the dog (ear and tail position and position of head and body), are related to submission and fear (Fox, 1974; van Hooff and Wensing, 1987; Beerda et al., 1997, 1999, 2000) and harsh training (Schwizgebel, 1982). Beerda et al. have shown, that, even in the absence of a person or dog, dogs lower their posture when confronted with an unexpected aversive stimulus. This shows that lowering of the posture is not an expression of submission per se, but certainly is connected to fear. They also have shown, that certain behaviours (e.g. lifting a front paw, tongue flicking, licking lips and vocalisations) are connected to either chronic or acute stress.
Vocalisations are also indicative of pain (Hellyer, 1999; Noonan et al., 1996; Conzemius et al., 1997), especially the higher frequency squeals, yelps and barks. Biting attempts can be interpreted as pain-induced aggression (Light et al., 1993; Ulrich, 1966; Polski, 199.A characteristic, swift head movement sidewards and downwards often follows a shock as does a swift avoidance action. Both these reactions also indicate that reception of a shock is unpleasant. All in all these responses show that shocks elicit fear and pain responses. This means that shocks are not just a nuisance, but are really painful. In spite of the enormously high arousal of the dogs in this type of training, that very likely implies an increase of analgesia, receiving a shock may sometimes be perceived as a traumatic event by a dog.One of our study dogs still behaved as though it received shocks during protection work although the last shock was delivered 1.5 years before!(Klein, 2000).
Training dogs with help of the shock collar:
short and long term behavioural effects
Matthijs B.H. Schilder a,b,∗, Joanne A.M. van der Borg a
a Department of Clinical Sciences of Companion Animals, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands
b Department of Ethology and Socio-Ecology, University of Utrecht, Utrecht, The Netherlands
Accepted 23 October 2003
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Adam P
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29-07-2010, 10:54 AM
K9ulf

Can I ask what methods do you use and what you train the dogs for, genuinely interested not wanting to critise at all.

JB,TUPAC

I asked because the thread mentioned lines of mals that were considered elss than social, they actualy want an adult anyway so wouldn't be looking at a breeder. I was jsut asking so if they saw a dog with x in uits pedigree I could steer them away. I think they'l probably just get one through a rescue though.

Cad
I don't see the dif between training abused dogs and normal dogs. If its the best method for them its the best method for them.
Btw in the quoted study, the dogs reactions demonstrate the level was too high. Also its obviouse the study is not impartial by the langauge used.

Re the wales ban, my concern is as people have pointed out already. E collars will still be used but because people are cautiouse of using them they will use them without assitance/education which will result in a higher level than neccasary being used.

Adam
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Crysania
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29-07-2010, 11:03 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
I don't see the dif between training abused dogs and normal dogs. If its the best method for them its the best method for them.
This right here shows how little you understand dogs, or hell, even psychology at ALL. It means that if you are a dog trainer (and I somehow doubt it), you are a lousy one.

Personally, I think you're just a person who works for an e-collar company and is trying to promote the use of them to help your company make more money.
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Tupacs2legs
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29-07-2010, 11:04 AM
... dont get the 'it doesnt hurt' statment...otherwise normal training would suffice
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