Mf/CAD

The vid is titled rough heeling for a reason, I don't care were they are as long as they are roughly close to me!

Don't care about position at all in this circumstance.

Not a dig at you Mf just an observation on OB in general.

I wonder why you lot are so defensive about your methods and so quick to critise mine, maybe because positive really isn't all that great!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaTkYZi10GU

Adam

Defensive...not that I have seen...

Critical...yes - when you are using pain to train dogs, you will always find people who are (rightly IMO) critical.

I assume I am MF? If so I dont train OB in any way shape or form, although I see nothing wrong with those who do
I train agility and tricks
Im not defensive of my methods, I am just against causing cruelty to dogs and happy to offer people an alternative to punishment methods

I have posted two videos in this thread, I would be more than happy for you to show me how you think the methods are failing and how the dogs are stressed and unhappy

Yey! Adam has stopped ignoring my posts. I must be getting through, do you think? Bit close to home?
I like the new sport of Rough Heeling.
You`re getting a bit snitty Adam - a little defensive perhaps?
Basic obedience really isn`t hard. If you need to hurt the dog to teach basics, you really are doing it wrong.

no argument from me Clair.

i already have that position.

i was specifically asking if any else didnt get the meaning of my specific post above?

which leads me to.....

....it seems i do owe Adam an explanation after all, as doberman doesnt understand my post either.

Hi Dobie.

I am indeed saying that Adam says that the stress of waiting on a treat is equal to that of a shock collar.
Because that is indeed what he said on the ecollar thread.
However, the latter part of your post is not what i am saying at all.
No offence dobie, my bad.
That was the point of this thread.

So as Adam asked me to explain again, here goes:

Adam says the dog feels stress as he has to wait to get his reward (toy, treat, play, whatever).
He has to do so because he has to perform the behaviour first.
Adam cited a recall as an occasion the dog feels stressed.
Adam says he is stressed all the way back to you, as he doesnt get his treat straight away.

Adam goes on to say that this stress is equal to the stress a dog feels from an ecollar.

(As a side note, it is interesting to point out that Adam now admits that dogs feel stress from ecollars. Im not to sure if he noticed that )

Anyway, we would then all ask Adam how come the reward traned dog looks happy when it is charging up to up to you on a recall, for example?
Adam states this is because the excitement..ie, the expectation of receiving the reward...masks the stress signs.

Adam would then say this is why you can see the stress signs when ecollar training, but not reward training.

I state that this is a convenient get out clause.

I also state, like everyone else, that this is clearly not logic, sense, or a basic understanding of emotion.
So i gave an analogy:
I might be gagging all night for santa to bring me a present.
That may technically be labelled stress, but it is clearly "good stress". As it is related to the joy and pleasure of expecting something nice.
Therefore it is 'stress' associated with nice warm feelings inside, which naturally isnt the same as the associated feelings of foreboding and fear i may feel knowing i am about to receive an electric shock!
And that IS all the 'argument' you really need to know!

However, here was the point of my post that Adam and others may have misunderstood:

I then went on to play devils' advocate, and said lets assume for a moment that adam's argument is right.

What i am saying is that adam's very own argument disproves his theory!

That is because thus:

a) the dog runs for the treat but does not 'show' the stress, as the 'feelings' of excitment/joy/pleasure of expecting something masks the 'feelings' of stress

b) the dog gets an ecollar stim (what we call electric shock), and does show the stress, as his dog jacca did in the video.

Now, and this is the biggeee:
If we assume that both dogs are feeling stressed, then surely the stress the "reward dog" feels is way lower than what the "ecollar dog" feels, otherwise the ecollar dog would be feeling enough happiness/excitement/expectation to also mask his stress signs!

Obviously he doesnt, as he is not happy with his expectation of an event as the reward dog is.
ie, he is not happy knowing an electric shock is due!

And therein layeth the irony of Adam's own argument, which he has missed.
Therefore, you dont need to rely on our argument stating why the expectation of someting good is not the 'suffering of stress' etc etc.
As adam has done the job for us!


precisely!

Thanks Kruse, I see what you mean.

Well, I have an idea for an experiment;
put an E-collar on Adam and show him a Mars bar and see what happens lol

I shouldnt really say that should I? Sorry Adam

MF is Mishflynn

See post 522..
There you go again Adam, spokesperson for the weired tramp who originally posted on the internet the video in the link you have just posted above and others of dogs being abused .

Associating with the likes of him does nothing at all for your credibility with members here.

ETA for anyone who can't be bothered to look at Adam's latest offering it is a childish attempt to poke fun at some of those who endorse positive training and don't approve of the e collar. It was originally posted on the internet by the strange tramp in a bad wig who has been banned from just about every dog forum known to man , he also happens to be an e collar salesman and is no doubt concerned that the trade in e collars is slipping through his very grubby little hands.

Oh dear, I think Adam is clutching at straws!

Can I just ask Adam, what do you do to train a dog? (to teach it what is expected)