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Trouble
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Location: Romford, uk
Joined: Feb 2006
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13-06-2013, 11:38 AM
When I had entire males they never once attempted to hump anything in their entire lives. I currently have 3 neutered males 1 of whom would certainly attempt to hump an in season bitch and 1 of whom would attempt to hump anything, anytime anywhere if left to his own devices and 1 who has no interest other than the odd sniff of an in season bitch who he clearly thinks smells a bit iffy but arouses no interest for him at all. My entire females don't arouse much interest in dogs other than my own. These days I am leaning much more towards neutering later, if at all.
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Mattie
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13-06-2013, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by mjfromga View Post
Not trying to sound rude, but I'd think your entire male wants to hump them because he is entire. Entire males hump more than neutered males and they also have a tendency to try and be dominant over other dogs.
Not true, none of my entire dogs attempted to hump other dogs or people, Cyril who was neutered before I got him will hump anything if he can get away with it.

There are many reasons why a dog will hump, over excited, often caused by play and stress are the main ones, it has NOTHING to do with trying to dominate.
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Mattie
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13-06-2013, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by Rosebud77 View Post
The opposite to your thesis has been proved many times by many here. Testosterone is testosterone; not needed for maturation or growth except re sexuality. That is its purpose and that is what we change when we neuter even later in life. Growth hormones are a different matter altogether and we are not talking re removing growth hormone glands
Seems there are many badly controlled dogs in your area...

On this we must agree to disagree; my experience is of family work over decades and I trust that. Never any problems,
Sorry Rosebud but testosterone is needed for male dogs to develop properly and mature both mentally and physically. Many vets are now refusing to neuter a male dog that is nervous because it makes that worse. Neutering a dog early can stop the growth plates close so the dog grows taller than he should, there is a higher risk of bone cancer in some breeds if they are neutered early. The only thing that is taken away is testosterone which shows it does affect other parts of a dog.
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mjfromga
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15-06-2013, 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
Sorry Rosebud but testosterone is needed for male dogs to develop properly and mature both mentally and physically. Many vets are now refusing to neuter a male dog that is nervous because it makes that worse. Neutering a dog early can stop the growth plates close so the dog grows taller than he should, there is a higher risk of bone cancer in some breeds if they are neutered early. The only thing that is taken away is testosterone which shows it does affect other parts of a dog.
Vets don't do that here, they will neuter any male dog old enough and healthy enough. This can be as early as 8 weeks here. Who is a vet to truly determine a truly nervous dog anyway, as dogs often aren't themselves around the vets.

I don't advocate neutering this early, but if I knew the person would never have it done later, and might end up contributing to dying dogs in shelters, I'd certainly not tell them not to.

It can cause male dogs to grow taller, but in most dogs this hasn't been proven to cause any adverse effects. My last dog was male, never neutered and lived a long and happy life.. so I certainly don't rush to have it done.

It is linked to osteo sarcoma in the Rottweiler, but only because the breed is already so prone to it.

In the end, testicles are not vital organs and their removal doesn't always guarantee something bad will happen to your dog, or that the dog will have any negative or adverse effects at all.

Sorry Rosebud but testosterone is needed for male dogs to develop properly and mature both mentally and physically.

MANY dogs grow to a normal size and live long, healthy lives as early neuters, so I don't find this factual. You act as if all dogs neutered early grow too tall and have ongoing health and behavioral problems. This isn't the case... some dogs have no adverse effects from this.
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Mattie
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15-06-2013, 07:30 AM
Vets are able to determine that some dogs are nervous, they do handle quite a few dogs every day. There is a lot of evidence now that neutering nervous dogs makes them worse not better, I have experienced this myself with one of my dogs, I thought I was helping him, in fact I made his life worse and I will never forget that.

Dogs don't have pups, when neutering a dog you just change the risks. The reasons that I hear for neutering a dog early is in the hope the teenage stage is easier, as this is also the second fear period it can make the dog worse.

In the UK height is one of the signs that go for when trying to establish if a dog is of Pit Bull type, many tall Staffies were taken at one time, it didn't matter if the dog had a pedigree or not, if it was over height he was taken. Thankfully this doesn't seem to be the case now but it was very traumatising for both the dog and the family especially as the dog could have been in isolation for up to 2 years.

It isn't just Rotties that cancer of the bones can develop, there are other breeds.

Just because an organ isn't vital doesn't mean it has to be removed, what right have we got to remove organs that any animal has?

There is enough evidence now to show that early neutering does affect dogs, not only with the growth plates not closing which causes leggier dogs who's bones are not what the should be but in may cases a dog doesn't mature mentally, he stays at the mental stage he was when he was neutered. I have one here now, Cyril, Gracie was one, she had a puppy mentality until she was pts aged 17.5 years old, a friend has one that was neutered at 8 weeks old. Rescues are getting some of these dogs back because owners can't cope with them, I once saw a post by a well known rescue in the UK saying that the dogs that were returned because the owner can't cope with them, most were neutered early.

Staffies are boisterous dogs but a adult Staffie with a puppy brain is a nightmare, thankfully I have the help of 3 good bitches that are adults mentally to help me with Cyril.

I never said that ALL dogs are affected by early neutering, those are your words not mine, but there are enough cases now to challenge early neutering. I don't blame rescues, they end up taking in the unwanted litters but to say early neutering doesn't affect dogs is giving the wrong information out to owners, it is better to give them the tools to work out for themselves when to neuter their dogs then they can make an informed decision for themselves. If we give out the wrong information we don't have to deal with the consequences, the owners do.

A few years ago I done a search trying to find sites that gave both sides of neutering, I found 2 in hundreds of sites all trying to convince owners to neuter, now things are different, there are a lot more sites giving both sides of this.
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mjfromga
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15-06-2013, 08:10 AM
I know that vets can tell when a dog is nervous. They cannot always determine that this is a direct part of the dogs normal disposition. Even the calmest, most even headed dog can throw a temper tantrum at the vet.

My dog always acted WAY outside of himself at the vets. Normally he wasn't an aggressive dog, but take him into the vets and he turned into a killer. A vet cannot often gauge the real temperament of a pet, as they don't often act the same at the office, that's all I was saying.

I don't think most people neuter to make the teenage stage easier, actually I've not heard even one early neuterer, or neuterer period say this was their primary reason.

The reason is usually trying to get the dog a health benefit and generally reduce aggressive tendencies, not just make the teenage stage easier IMO. There's no real evidence that early neutering helps dogs during this stage anyway.

Sorry but the staffy thing is just stupid as the two breeds have clear and VERY distinct differences and this seems merely lazy on the govt. part. Easier to just take all the tall ones, instead of actually matching dogs up to breed standard or taking a glance at the pedigree.

You're right, you didn't expressly say that all early neutered dogs are affected by the procedure, however; the statement: "Testosterone is needed for male dogs to develop properly and mature both mentally and physically" includes all male dogs... therefore you insinuated (though didn't SAY) that no male dogs can develop properly or mentally and physically mature without their testosterone, which isn't true.

While there are enough cases to challenge it, and while I'm not, in ANY way promoting it, I don't think it's a really bad thing in most cases. Since the argument has been going on since the 90s and even before, I don't think any recent developments will really change anything. In the end, it's down to personal choice, and weighing the risks of your particular dog.


Just because an organ isn't vital doesn't mean it has to be removed, what right have we got to remove organs that any animal has?


Where I live, this is the main defense against neutering and spaying. That it's somehow wrong, or can be considered cruel. These same people have bred dogs and removed dewclaws, docked tails and cropped ears.

They also give their dogs vaccines they don't need (can be very, very harmful) and are oblivious to many other things they might be doing to cause their dog harm.

The dog isn't aware he has no testicles, he doesn't go looking for them or anything of the sort. The surgery on male dogs is a very simple, and easily recovered from surgery. Few dogs experience any true problems related to the surgery. You know this already.

In the end, people who spay and neuter are usually trying to make their animals healthier, calmer, and do their part to lessen the chance of more unwanted pets.

Frankly, if you care for your pet properly... whether neutered/spayed or not.. you'll not be having any unwanted litters, but we can agree that most pet owners are not competent or careful enough to be able to manage this, if they were... millions of animals would not have had to die.

I don't really like neutering, and though my current puppy is an early neuter, I'd never advise it or promote it, but I'd also never advise against it, knowing how many animals have to die because people let their dogs breed by accident.

As for temperament changes, in calming dogs etc., I don't even find it relevant worth anything. My 6 month old puppy is THE most "in your face" puppy I've met.

He barks at strangers, he's not even slightly aggressive with other animals, but he barks in their faces if they won't play with him, and he is a very cocky/arrogant little guy (goes up to anybody, any dog) and seems far more excitable etc. than my last male, who wasn't neutered.

So, if someone was looking to neuter early to reduce excitability, or to mellow a puppy out... I'd tell them they were wasting their time.

It's just that, in America... far too many dogs are killed and suffer on the streets because of accidental breeding. If neutering early would stop this or slow this down, at the risk of some possible health issues to the dog, I think it's a fair price to pay. THAT is the main reason I won't stand against it, honestly.

Have a nice day
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