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Jackie
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22-06-2013, 05:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gemini54 View Post
Hi thank you for all your comments. Regarding the circus the big families Chipperfield and smart,saw the writing on the wall a long time before the law became a reality,and went into the up and coming safari parks i.e. Longleat and Woburn,even one of the lesser known families ran Chessington Circus.Although in Europe horses are used,the public have spoken regarding zoos etc,now it has to be the TV Gemini54
What do you mean by the public have spoken regarding zoos.. As far as I am aware zoos still exist and many of the public still visit them along with supporting the work they do for conservation.
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Tang
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22-06-2013, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
What do you mean by the public have spoken regarding zoos.. As far as I am aware zoos still exist and many of the public still visit them along with supporting the work they do for conservation.
Correct. Still a very popular day out for many in the UK. Whipsnade for one. I'm not sure what OP means by Circuses no longer use animals or Public have spoken regarding Zoos?

Methinks a little more up to date research is needed just in case anyone just 'looking in' reads any of that and thinks it is 'gospel'.
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Tang
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22-06-2013, 05:52 PM
Whipsnade Zoo Conservation
http://www.zsl.org/conservation/

Chester Zoo Conservation
https://www.chesterzoo.org/conservat...d-conservation

Regents Park (London Zoo) Conservation
http://www.zsl.org/conservation/

I could go on. But here's an alphabetical list of UK Zoos/Safari Parks and similar places for you to see
http://www.zoos.bizland.com/alphabetical.htm

You do come out with some sweeping statements that are just not correct Gemini. Where do you get these ideas from? 'The public have spoken'? where? when?
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BlueJay
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22-06-2013, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by Gemini54 View Post
if the camera man could see surely he could help that animal by getting it help,not just filming,I remember the Flamingo yes they are stupid birds,but everyone has a right to life,they go to this lake in Africa and it is very high in salt,they have there young,
but unfortunately the lake begins to solidify and the birds end up with great chunks of salt on there feet,they can't fly and then you see the small babies trying hard to move,why couldnt the camera man at least try to help,by chipping off the salt no he kept on filming.
Gemini54

RE the documentaries; its sort of an unwritten rule that filmmakers do not intervene wherever possible.
They are there to document the things that happen naturally, not alter things to suit human feelings.
Yes, it is sad to us when an animal dies, but that flamingo (for example) is going on to feed jackals or flies etc. They certainly don't feel sad about it.

The animals in most of these programmes (speaking specifically about wildlife documentaries) are put themselves in the situation, so its not a filmmakers - or any persons -place to try and fix that.
Salt lakes are natural, a bird falling out of a nest is natural, a wildebeest being stalked on the savannah is natural.

Circle of life!
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Gemini54
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22-06-2013, 07:52 PM
Originally Posted by Tangutica View Post
Whipsnade Zoo Conservation
http://www.zsl.org/conservation/

Chester Zoo Conservation
https://www.chesterzoo.org/conservat...d-conservation

Regents Park (London Zoo) Conservation
http://www.zsl.org/conservation/

I could go on. But here's an alphabetical list of UK Zoos/Safari Parks and similar places for you to see
http://www.zoos.bizland.com/alphabetical.htm

You do come out with some sweeping statements that are just not correct Gemini. Where do you get these ideas from? 'The public have spoken'? where? when?
Hi the public spoke about zoos,when they were just exhibitions,now most zoos give there collections a life as near to the wild,they do not just pace they are given enrichment and the public now enjoy visiting zoos,I went to see the PG Tips Chimps having tea,they were chained to their chairs it wasnt a happy experience and due to the public the zoos have now changed their outlook,looking at conservation and enrichment.I think living abroad,you somehow have lost out on what is actually happening,things are moved on because the public either show their support or they just dont go ans spend their hard earned cash,the circus, people didnt want to see animals being unnatural so they boycotted the circus.At the end of the day it all come down to bums on seats,And I do not make sweeping statements.my father was a showman.and I was brought up with show people and circus people,they have there own newspaper,and they were aware of the public displeasure long before it became real Gemini54
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Bitkin
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22-06-2013, 11:02 PM
Have sort of read through the whole thread, and to be honest am astounded that anyone should think that showing nature as it is, in all it's raw glory and gore, should be censored along with any documentaries about how the food we eat ends up in our supermarkets etc. Also the suggestion that upsetting scenes about animals should not be included in films, documentaries or soaps.

Why?

A sugar coated life of ignorance is not going to produce intelligent well thought out choices, and there are quite enough children in this country alone who are growing up not having a clue where meat comes from (other than the supermarket shelf), and this is not only appalling from an educational point of view, it is frightening from an animal welfare point of view.

You cannot pretend that animals are not slaughtered for our benefit, nor can you pretend that in nature the food chain is not littered with violent deaths.

As for wildlife photographers intervening..........there is a very strict code and they are simply not allowed to no matter how much they might be itching to run across and help an injured animal. Of course, sometimes they do help, but nobody will every know about it and you certainly won't see it on camera UNLESS it is something caused by man.

I know that it is dreadfully distressing to see the death of a dog on tv, especially when you have perhaps just lost your own, but if nothing was ever included in a story line for this reason, then there would be no story line

When our first dog, Ben, died.....the very first song on Radio 2 the following morning was "Ben" by Michael Jackson; I could say that all songs with names in should not be played in case they upset someone. This is exactly the same principle.

Finally - yes, we do all have a choice. We have a remote control and can turn off what we don't like, but please don't suggest that nobody can watch things just because we don't want to.
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Gemini54
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23-06-2013, 06:47 AM
Hi my question was When do we stop feeling,we showed our feelings that we didnt like Zoos as they were,and now the animals have a happier life,we didnt go to a circus for the same reason,yet Tv has gone too much the other way,yes you can turn it off,but do we and our children need to see to understand an animals pain,we all know what the ending is going to be,but we dont need to see it,couldnt a camera man show something else in the context of the programme,and then at the end of the programme as the titles are going up say something about what happened to the animal featured.
Gemini54
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Tang
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23-06-2013, 07:37 AM
Originally Posted by Gemini54 View Post
Hi the public spoke about zoos,when they were just exhibitions,now most zoos give there collections a life as near to the wild,they do not just pace they are given enrichment and the public now enjoy visiting zoos,I went to see the PG Tips Chimps having tea,they were chained to their chairs it wasnt a happy experience and due to the public the zoos have now changed their outlook,looking at conservation and enrichment.I think living abroad,you somehow have lost out on what is actually happening,things are moved on because the public either show their support or they just dont go ans spend their hard earned cash,the circus, people didnt want to see animals being unnatural so they boycotted the circus.At the end of the day it all come down to bums on seats,And I do not make sweeping statements.my father was a showman.and I was brought up with show people and circus people,they have there own newspaper,and they were aware of the public displeasure long before it became real Gemini54
What an absolutely ridiculous statement to make! I lived in the UK until very recently and still return there frequently and all my family live there. Methinks it is you that is out of touch with 'reality'. I don't know where you get your mis-information from because you never post links to back up what you say.

You've said circuses have stopped using animals. They haven't. If it was something you feel strongly about you'd know that. If it's just something you 'thought had happened' well it's obviously you that it out of touch with the reality.

You've said the public have spoken regarding zoos. You now seem to be saying that was in long gone times? You aren't clear what you mean by saying that.
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Rosebud77
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23-06-2013, 08:21 AM
Originally Posted by Bitkin View Post
Have sort of read through the whole thread, and to be honest am astounded that anyone should think that showing nature as it is, in all it's raw glory and gore, should be censored along with any documentaries about how the food we eat ends up in our supermarkets etc. Also the suggestion that upsetting scenes about animals should not be included in films, documentaries or soaps.

Why?

A sugar coated life of ignorance is not going to produce intelligent well thought out choices, and there are quite enough children in this country alone who are growing up not having a clue where meat comes from (other than the supermarket shelf), and this is not only appalling from an educational point of view, it is frightening from an animal welfare point of view.

You cannot pretend that animals are not slaughtered for our benefit, nor can you pretend that in nature the food chain is not littered with violent deaths.

As for wildlife photographers intervening..........there is a very strict code and they are simply not allowed to no matter how much they might be itching to run across and help an injured animal. Of course, sometimes they do help, but nobody will every know about it and you certainly won't see it on camera UNLESS it is something caused by man.

I know that it is dreadfully distressing to see the death of a dog on tv, especially when you have perhaps just lost your own, but if nothing was ever included in a story line for this reason, then there would be no story line

When our first dog, Ben, died.....the very first song on Radio 2 the following morning was "Ben" by Michael Jackson; I could say that all songs with names in should not be played in case they upset someone. This is exactly the same principle.

Finally - yes, we do all have a choice. We have a remote control and can turn off what we don't like, but please don't suggest that nobody can watch things just because we don't want to.
The Americans have a phrase " too much information" which applies here.

Reminds of a line in TS Eliot "mankind cannot bear too much reality"

YOU may be able to but many cannot and have lived filled with problems and difficulties in their daily and family lives too great to take on any more. This has nothing to do with "sugar coating"

As a family who work with terrible situations in India with babies dumped on rubbish heaps at birth, we do not even burden each other with the lurid details. I know simply that babies are dumped and that we desperately need the money I earn to help save them. Need to know applies here.

Mass media is a scourge in over burdening so many. I keep a weather eye only on news via the internet. No TV no radio from choice and because I see no need for more than I have.

When 9/11 hit, I was online with a reporter friend in the US on messenger. I spent much of the next 36 hours online counselling and listening to friend in the US from a peaceful place.. people would pass others on... I never saw the films etc as there was no need to .. I knew what happened and I knew the effect on people.

Many were watching the same news over and over again and making themselves ill in the process.

It can be a very selfish thing to watch too much; it really can. And it can put guilt onto many as some of the arguments here show clearly. Self indulgent and tjhoughtless of the needs of others in these situations

I honestly do not think it matters if kids know where meat comes from at an early age. More important that they eat sensible food to grow on..it is adults who can deal with the horrors not kids. too much info altogether. That becomes a burden and a hampering.

If you care, then DO SOMETHING. Preaching avails nothing. Emotion is useless!
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Rosebud77
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23-06-2013, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by Gemini54 View Post
Hi my question was When do we stop feeling,we showed our feelings that we didnt like Zoos as they were,and now the animals have a happier life,we didnt go to a circus for the same reason,yet Tv has gone too much the other way,yes you can turn it off,but do we and our children need to see to understand an animals pain,we all know what the ending is going to be,but we dont need to see it,couldnt a camera man show something else in the context of the programme,and then at the end of the programme as the titles are going up say something about what happened to the animal featured.
Gemini54
You are 100%right! Well said.. something amiss with folk who insist on seeing evil and in insisting that OTHERS see it. And many feed on these scenes and some copy them.

Were TV destroyed the world would be a far better place.

and no we do NOT need to see gratuitous violence.
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