lets strip it back for a minute

a collar is a collar!! put it wherever you like and its a collar - ask someone who has never seen a choker before in their life what it is whilst off a dog and they will likley tell you its a chain NOT a collar - I have jewllery on today - beads - its round my neck but its not a bloody collar!! if I put them round my dogs neck, they are still beads.

I am not saying you are not following the 'rule book' I'm saying that if that is the KC way of looking at it then I dont agree with that. Call a spade a spade, if you like.

Why if they have been teaching an appropriate stay does anyone need to hold anything to take a collar on and off for saftey anyway? Surley they are in a safe environment?

fair enough

Because the first thing you consider when either training or examining (in any sphere) is safety.

When I turn up to examine a dog, I have no idea if it might dive into the waiting dogs and have a barney!

I would hope the club would not put forward such a candidate. If it did, I would then have to report the incident in the KC incident book etc etc etc etc

As I said before, if you don't agree with the KC system, you do not have to participate in it. There are lots of things I do not agree with in certain disciplines, but it is the best we have at the moment.

One of the reasons shows are not allowed to test silver and gold is because the examiner should not be put at risk.

As a trainer I have had to say to candidates that I would not put their dog forward for testing as their dog was not of a suitable temperament for the handling test in silver and gold.

I dont think the idea of having the scheme is rubbish but it is very open to 'exploitation' (sp?) from some trainers/classes/clubs

Well the tests cost nothing, but I have seen teams passed when under me they would not!

It's a collar that has no stop so continues to tighten around a dog's neck if the lead is taught. The dog would be classed as 'not ready', of course, if this happened, but that doesn't sop the fact (not opinion) that the collar will choke the dog to varying degrees if this happens. The use of the collar also implies that checking/yanking has occurred during training - of course, the KC are quite happy to accredit trainers using this and other punitive measures so I suppose it's in their best interests to allow choke chains, but is hardly fair on the trainers (who they also accredit) who train dogs using harnesses.

No, you don't need x-ray vision, well most don't. Part of the test is allowance of physical examination. It's not rocket science for the tester to check the harness at the same time as that examination. You don't have to look at the inside of the harness - feel is sufficient to know whether or not a harness is in good condition.

Historically, you may be correct. However, many people walk and train their dogs using static harnesses so nowadays harnesses are not just used for dogs pulling sleds. Whether or not they were designed with pulling in mind, what earthly bearing does this have on the test if the lead is loose??

Silly argument (of the 'old chestnut' type when this subject arises). Are you seriously saying that trainers who advocate choke chains do not encourage owners to use them for one sole purpose - to yank the dog to deliver correction??

Precisely, but the message given out by the KC is that it's OK to use a choke chain but not a harness. It's a bad message IMHO

The use of a collar does not IMPLY that the dog has been yanked at all, you may INFER that happens but as I have often said, what people infer, think is out of my control.

Feel is certainly NOT enough to see if ANY equipment is in good condition, either in dogs or horses, ALL equipment should be inspected by EYE regularly.

Who said that trainers advocate the use of choke chains or that they promote yanking etc, oh yes that would be you! Jumping to conclusions again.

As I said before, you are entitled to your opinion, and not to participate in it, but your opinion is not the ONLY opinion or necessarily correct.

fortunately we are allowed several methods of training, assessing, examining in the UK, and if something is not to our liking, we can vote with our feet.

Many people I know use choke chains on the dead link so the dogs cannot be choked!

But I gather that this practice is outside your experience hence why you assume that all users, trainers and examiners who use/permit the use of choke chains promote practices which are in conflict with positive reinforcement which is in fact not the case.

Hey ho.

I have known dogs take it with KC permission in harnesses---no medical reason but one was a rough collie and collars of whatever type were totally impractical. She had SO much ruff that they just fell off even as combi collars.

The stupidest thing was the trainer who said the deaf dog couldn't do it because the owner had to use a hand signal with a bright tuggy toy to recall him. Common sense prevailed in the end!

rune

smokeybear some of the people who are doing these test and the training for them......its what puts me off tbh, not all but many........I was at one stage for 'play with your dog' or something left with nothing to do really.

My dog was not allowed a tug toy, he was not allowed anything that squeaked, he was not allowed a ball and he wasnt particularly food motivated for the training side either. Why? because of his BREED! It was rediculous but even under that my dog managed the training only for others to 'pass'...when they hadnt! And really, a dog of a guarding breed since he couldnt actually play was busy being watchful to the 'ruckas' (sp?) going on around him....when all the little dogs were giving it loudy for tug toys to an extent where mine wouldnt get to (because its no longer 'your' game IMHO)

These are the type of things that put people off and the fact that they will charge a fortune...

not necessarily a training scheme idea in itself but that sort of stuff.....also because of his neck shape I refused to have him walk in there practically choking on the stupid fit if his collar rule and only adjusted it before they came to inspect....totally impractical so dosnt necessarily allow the 'standard' to transfer to 'real life'


I dont know if you can since you take the tests etc but what do you think about all these things? (in general with KC good citizen..)

in one session I counted that we only actually did anything for about 15 min (if your lucky) from an hour, no wonder the dogs were getting bored! (all about 6-9 months old at the time) The same person sitting in on the class was the 'examiner' throughout this....

Are you seriously suggesting that people buy choke chains, or that trainers recommend them because they look pretty? The chain has one very specific purpose, to deliver a physical correction.

I used to run the good citz tests. My clients were not allowed to use choke chains and I contacted the KC many times on the harness issue. Fortunately, it is not compulsory for dogs to have to wear chokers to take the test, just very, very unfortunate that they are allowed to.

or campaign from within.

No doubt specifically bought to be used this way because they look pretty perhaps?

Here we go with another 'old chestnut' - lacking experience!

Tell me SB, do you honestly and truly believe the vast majory of dogs wearing choke chains for the KCGC tests have been trained without yanking and jerking?

as you say - hey ho!

Would the dog be able to wear any type of collar during the test?

Adam