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rubylover
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23-02-2011, 04:40 PM
Keep in mind, in regards to the carrier mated to carrier situation, that in some breeds the choices are getting to the point that this has to be done, or they have to go down the route of outcrossing to another breed.

Boxers are an example (there are probably more). Since the DM allele has been identified, it looks like the breed is 35% carrier and 50% 'at risk' (two risky alleles) with only the remaining 15% clear. You can't breed forward on just 15% of your dogs. I am sure Boxer breeders will have to consider carrier x carrier breedings.

Source here: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/dm.shtml

Dalmatians are another breed where 'at risk' x 'at risk' have been bred together for years, in regards to the HUA gene, with only now the LUA Dals starting to become accepted. (Even an LUA Dalmation x an HUA is a carrier x 'at risk' breeding).

I'd, personally, choose outcrossing to another breed in cases like this, but I do know that in breeding circles that would not go over politically and I do recognize the hard choices some breeders have to make.

Now, in regards to the three, for me temperament and health rate higher on the list of priorities than phenotypic traits, but I have always hung in a society where dogs were not commonly bred by purity, and were usually bred for a job, so naturally that has had a huge influence on the way I think about dogs.

Ruby
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Jackie
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23-02-2011, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
please can you direct me to a post where i have given the impression that the border collie is the only dog worth breeding from?


hmmm so as you agree that no dog is 100% yet you would only consider the full total package then no dog should be bred from?
No, I am being realistic and understand there is not such thing as a perfect dog, that doesn't mean, that breeders should nto strive to breed the best that can achieve , meeting as much as the breed standard as possible, they will all have some form of fault, the trick is to breed to as best you can.

Health wise its a little simpler,you breed two healthy dog together, but even then its not 100% guaranteed, you can breed to eradicate what you know about , but you cant control enviroment, same with temperament, you may breed the soundest temperament, but enviroment can also play apart in these things..

One can only do ones best, there are breeders out there who take as much care over temperament /health as well as type, but as you know about breeding, I would expect you to know all the above, when breeding its not foolproof, it never can be, but if you start off with good ingredients, you at least have a better chance of getting it right , as much as you can!

P.S.... have no intention of trawling through your previous posts, to find you evidence, but we will leave it at that!!
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Jackie
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23-02-2011, 05:12 PM
[
Originally Posted by rubylover View Post
Boxers are an example (there are probably more). Since the DM allele has been identified, it looks like the breed is 35% carrier and 50% 'at risk' (two risky alleles) with only the remaining 15% clear. You can't breed forward on just 15% of your dogs. I am sure Boxer breeders will have to consider carrier x carrier breedings.

Source here: http://www.newcastleboxers.com/dm.shtml

Ruby
As far as I am aware DM is nto something the UK Boxer is prone too, and as the US Boxer is not popular in the UK, thankfully we are not introducing this disease into our breeding stock.

I may be wrong ,but Newcastle Boxers is a US breeder and although is knowledgeable, not sure the link is relevant to the European Boxer,

Will ask around, but its not something I have heard our breed , her in the UK, being blighted by!
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rubylover
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23-02-2011, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
[

As far as I am aware DM is nto something the UK Boxer is prone too, and as the US Boxer is not popular in the UK, thankfully we are not introducing this disease into our breeding stock.

I may be wrong ,but Newcastle Boxers is a US breeder and although is knowledgeable, not sure the link is relevant to the European Boxer,

Will ask around, but its not something I have heard our breed , her in the UK, being blighted by!
This has me perplexed. Are the US and UK Boxers a different breed?

I only know about Boxers from a genetics list I am on, but when I googled about it does look like DM is acknowledged as a problem in the breed even in the UK. These links show that.

http://www.ukboxerdogs.co.uk/iandi.html

http://www.ukboxerdogs.co.uk/iandi.html#dm

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/s...p?testID=8158D

I noticed as well that it was not mentioned at all on the most recent KC health survey?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/down...24/hsboxer.pdf

It is late onset and incompletely penetrant which might be why it often goes unseen even when dogs are 'at risk' as they carry two risky genes.

This is a similar situation to the HUA gene in Dalmations in that not all, or even not a large number, with risky genes will end up suffering from the condition . . . but they do continue to pass the risk onto their offspring.

Jackbox, I didn't notice until your reply to my post that Boxers were your breed. I looked up the study which identified the gene and it is here:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...97106.full.pdf

It notes on page five, the high frequency of mutation in the Boxer and Pembroke Welsh Corgi and the problems posed for the population if the mutation is strictly avoided. I thought you might want to have a look.

I don't know where the at risk and carrier rates from that first link were gathered, but from the OFA site where 1126 Boxers have been tested (OFA is not a study sample) clear rates are at 18%, which is a bit better.

http://www.offa.org/dnateststats.html

Ruby
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Borderdawn
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23-02-2011, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Tassle View Post
Again - good for you. Other may want a specific breed or type of dog and have little choice as to where they get it from.

I am waiting on a litter - but I will only get one if it is the right sex and the right colour. I will wait for the dog who ticks every box for me - and I am lucky enough to have the choice to do that within my breed.
WOW! Not much in the line of health and temperament there then!
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Tupacs2legs
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23-02-2011, 05:56 PM
i dont know what a 'family temperament' is

but it has to be the correct one for that breed imo.
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Borderdawn
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23-02-2011, 06:02 PM
Originally Posted by Tupacs2legs View Post
i dont know what a 'family temperament' is

but it has to be the correct one for that breed imo.
People forget what a "breed" is Layla, which is why many end up in welfare. I believe that each breed should be bred to its standard and the character of that breed should be paramount, otherwise there would be no point.
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Moonstone
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23-02-2011, 06:10 PM
For me personally, the health and the temperament are the most important, then the looks. I do not breed or show though, so as a companion animal, the health and the temperament, are much more important than what a dog looks like.

I do think breeders should be breeding from dogs that offer all three though, not dogs that compromise one for the other. A well bred dog from a good breeder, should really have all three, as a whole package.
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Jackie
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23-02-2011, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by rubylover View Post
This has me perplexed. Are the US and UK Boxers a different breed?I only know about Boxers from a genetics list I am on, but when I googled about it does look like DM is acknowledged as a problem in the breed even in the UK. These links show that.

http://www.ukboxerdogs.co.uk/iandi.html

http://www.ukboxerdogs.co.uk/iandi.html#dm

http://www.laboklin.co.uk/laboklin/s...p?testID=8158D

I noticed as well that it was not mentioned at all on the most recent KC health survey?

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/down...24/hsboxer.pdf

It is late onset and incompletely penetrant which might be why it often goes unseen even when dogs are 'at risk' as they carry two risky genes.

This is a similar situation to the HUA gene in Dalmations in that not all, or even not a large number, with risky genes will end up suffering from the condition . . . but they do continue to pass the risk onto their offspring.

Jackbox, I didn't notice until your reply to my post that Boxers were your breed. I looked up the study which identified the gene and it is here:

http://www.pnas.org/content/early/20...97106.full.pdf

It notes on page five, the high frequency of mutation in the Boxer and Pembroke Welsh Corgi and the problems posed for the population if the mutation is strictly avoided. I thought you might want to have a look.

Ruby
No, ofcause they are not, but Boxers from around the world will /can be prone to one disease over another, Cardiomyopathy for instance was brought to our UK dogs from the US, it has been traced back to US imports.

Yes I know its listed on UK Boxer dogs, (am a frequent visitor) my point was, and I said I may be wrong, is that DM is not something that seems to be prevalent in our breed, here, ofcause as you say , it could go unmasked, but as far as I know, its not something high on the list Boxer ailments. i understood it to be "dog" related not paticulary breed persific, but you have tweaked my interest, and will do a bit of digging to see how (if any) much of a problem it is in our UK Boxer.

My point about the UK to the US is down to lines, as the later is not popular here, so the risks of carriers being bred from (assumign they are imports) is small,

Reading NewcastleBoxers information, it seems to be a major problem, so it would be intersting to see if its down to lines, breed or general,

Will try and find out how much of a problem it is here, and I know just the person to ask!

P.S ,,cant read your link, its to small and I cant make it larger.
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Ben Mcfuzzylugs
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23-02-2011, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
No, I am being realistic and understand there is not such thing as a perfect dog, that doesn't mean, that breeders should nto strive to breed the best that can achieve , meeting as much as the breed standard as possible, they will all have some form of fault, the trick is to breed to as best you can.

Health wise its a little simpler,you breed two healthy dog together, but even then its not 100% guaranteed, you can breed to eradicate what you know about , but you cant control enviroment, same with temperament, you may breed the soundest temperament, but enviroment can also play apart in these things..

One can only do ones best, there are breeders out there who take as much care over temperament /health as well as type, but as you know about breeding, I would expect you to know all the above, when breeding its not foolproof, it never can be, but if you start off with good ingredients, you at least have a better chance of getting it right , as much as you can!

P.S.... have no intention of trawling through your previous posts, to find you evidence, but we will leave it at that!!
As many other people have understood the question I get the feeling that you are being difficult on purpose but for one last time I will explain
You say you know all dogs will have its faults and you strive to breed the best you can, which is of course what everyone should do - but the question is which fault has more weight than others in the individuals mind - as most people have been able to answer this question I really dont care now if you dont understand so I will not be trying to explain again

As for not trawling back
Can i respectfully then ask the mods if that post can be removed as I can only see it as a personal attack on me made in order to discredit any oppinion i express on this thread by making people think that I think other breeds are not worthy
That has never been my stance and to my knowladge I have never posted anything that says that, therefore that post may colour new pwoples oppinion of me unfairly and I am not happy to let it stand
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