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Adam P
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08-11-2010, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
what exactly were you trying to acheive there? what do you think the dog was learning? were you using the shock at all? and why was it needed for a heelwork exercise on the lead?
The lead bit was jsut a vid showing how it could be done, as you could see he heels quite well so I didn't use the stim at all.

In the first video, I believe I may have used the stim once or twice. However can't remember excatly.

What was I trying to achieve/what did he learn.

1, recall from high drive situation.

2, down in high drive situation.

3, move away from dog coming into your space.

4, DON'T attack Hartvey for the stick/chase and bite him when he's running. Btw this wasn't play as Harvey was extremely unhappy with it. Or if it was play its not play that I'm ok with.

Interestingly they now both chase the same stick, Jacca gets there firsts but leaves it (runs past and barks) Harvey picks up and retrieves it.

Adam
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08-11-2010, 10:00 PM
watched couple vids

at first its hard to follow stuff as the picture quality is a bit poor and there is a weird clicking noise throughout (not the e collar)

but i noticed the jack lick his lips a few times and he kept his ears back, eyes and and head down for long periods of time.
he didnt look happy.

he licked his lip and ducked his head seconds before the collie ran out the river next to him.

the rest of the handling looked fair, the voice was pleasant and i saw a treat used once.
i havent read anyone elses posts before viewing the vids.
SLB
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08-11-2010, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
The lead bit was jsut a vid showing how it could be done, as you could see he heels quite well so I didn't use the stim at all.

In the first video, I believe I may have used the stim once or twice. However can't remember excatly.

What was I trying to achieve/what did he learn.

1, recall from high drive situation.

2, down in high drive situation.

3, move away from dog coming into your space.

4, DON'T attack Hartvey for the stick/chase and bite him when he's running. Btw this wasn't play as Harvey was extremely unhappy with it. Or if it was play its not play that I'm ok with.

Interestingly they now both chase the same stick, Jacca gets there firsts but leaves it (runs past and barks) Harvey picks up and retrieves it.

Adam
You've proved nothing except that you're a legal abuse pushing person who knows nothing about dog training/language other than that, that you have seen in a textbook for your "degree" course.

You dont need an e-collar at all to get a dog to heel.
Number 1 and 2 = JRT = Natural
Number 3 = what dog in real life does that?
Number 4 = maybe walk them seperate or keep Jacca on the lead?

I suppose you're going to stop him barking next
Adam P
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08-11-2010, 10:07 PM
Can I just point out that a few weeks prior to the vid he was due to be pts for aggression.

I wouldn't have taken him on otherwise I wasn't even looking for another dog and certainly not another jrt (sorry Finn). I only took him on to save him.

He had been aggressive to his owners and other people. In disputes over food he'd bitten his owners numerouse times (multi bite attacks) and had also randomly attacked them.

He was only ever walked on lead and muzzled after attacking other dogs on walks.

Feel free to take on a dog with that history people, and train it up as you like. He's now a teaching dog btw.

Btw what is that clicking its annoying.

Adam
Adam P
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08-11-2010, 10:11 PM
Originally Posted by SLB View Post
Number 1 and 2 = JRT = Natural
Number 3 = what dog in real life does that?
Number 4 = maybe walk them seperate or keep Jacca on the lead?

I suppose you're going to stop him barking next
So what if its natural, its natural for dogs to bite but we don't allow them too.

Keeping him on lead would hardly give him much exercise, I think you could lead walk him all day and not put a dent in his energy levels, few hours free running and he jsut chills for the rest of the time. Besides I don't have the time to walk them separatly.

Btw the barking is not a problem.

Adam
SLB
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08-11-2010, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Can I just point out that a few weeks prior to the vid he was due to be pts for aggression.

I wouldn't have taken him on otherwise I wasn't even looking for another dog and certainly not another jrt (sorry Finn). I only took him on to save him.

He had been aggressive to his owners and other people. In disputes over food he'd bitten his owners numerouse times (multi bite attacks) and had also randomly attacked them.

He was only ever walked on lead and muzzled after attacking other dogs on walks.

Feel free to take on a dog with that history people, and train it up as you like. He's now a teaching dog btw.

Btw what is that clicking its annoying.

Adam
Well done for taking him on.
My OH's dog is the exact same - maybe a little less, but would go for children, people, dogs, wheels on cars and lorries. Also he's bitten me a few times..of which he has been removed then brought back in.

I used nothing but treats and a halti, he is now trusted around most children off lead ( my neighbours 5 year old can run up to him and hug him and he'll still grumble but wont have a go) He's gotten better around people and we can walk him around Skeggy market in the summer with little trouble, he now sits at the road and watches the cars/ lorries go past with no anxiety or problems. Dogs - he will get on with bitches only atm, we're working on others.

But the main difference between Benjie and Jacca - his tail is level or high, his face isnt worried and he enjoys going for a walk.

I admire that you saved a dog from being PTS but the methods you are using to further "save" him are more than likely damaging him more than helping. From the video's he doesnt look happy, he looks terrified and scared of putting a foot wrong in front of you incase you shove an e-collar around his neck.
Meg
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08-11-2010, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
i have every intention of doing so, everything in its own time, im nipping in and out of work duties.
I shall look forward to that with interest...

ive alwasy commented on adams training and spend a huge amount of time posting on training threads anyway.
Haven't we all..

the question should be; why am i wasting soooooooo much of my time on the internet and watching telly in general
its an addiction. i would argue it can all fall under the description of trivial in the wider scheme of things, but thats another discussion.
...there is trivia and then there is trivia, when it comes to the welfare of animals I would say questioning the ability of someone who visibly causes discomfort to a dog and actually includes himself among your number should take priority over whether or not a topic should be being discussed .
Clearly some people think by continually discussing the subject we are in fact acting as an advertisement for e collar salesmen by giving them the oxygen of publicity.
besides, i just dont agree with you. in the argument to oppose the abuse of e collar training, i just dont agree it is acceptable to either try and stifle discussion or resort to personal insult, regardless of the person directed at.
as it undermines people like wilbar and wys, for example, whom put forward a good case, as e collar trainers can then turn around and say their opponesnts haveno rational credibility.
also, it just makes anti collar folk sound the same as some of the more barmy excessive e collar trainers whom post in the same manner on forums as well.
I wasn't aware I had stifled debate , on the contrary I have frequently asked Adam questions but rarely received what I would call a satisfactory response and in some instances no response at all. As to personal insults, I don't consider it a personal insult to questions someones ability when they have put themselves forward as a authority on a particular subject and are found wanting.


and im being deadly serious, i mean exactly what i say
I am deadly serious as well so that makes two of us.
SLB
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08-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
So what if its natural, its natural for dogs to bite but we don't allow them too.

Keeping him on lead would hardly give him much exercise, I think you could lead walk him all day and not put a dent in his energy levels, few hours free running and he jsut chills for the rest of the time. Besides I don't have the time to walk them separatly.

Btw the barking is not a problem.

Adam
What dog owner/trainer says they dont have time to walk their own dog? If you have severe problems like your suggesting, and you're such the great trainer as you try to make out to be you would get up in the early hours in the morning to work with your dog 1 to 1, not stick a collar around his neck and shock him til he can fight his natural instinct anymore! My dog was scared..wait no terrified of fireworks over the weekend and because they started at 4pm and went on til 3am, I got up at 4am to take her out so she could the walk she missed the night before. Louie's heelwork was atroctious, so over the past few weeks I have been taking him out on his own after my OH has taken him for a walk - if you have a dog, you make time for it and train it properly, if you didnt have time for him on his own then why did you "save" him?

And it's natural drive for a JRT - do you even know their origin? It's like taking your collie into a field and expecting him to ignore the sheep...the drive is in his DNA - deep wired in through centuries of shaping and breeding it in. I have a JRT x BC and she does both things and yes biting is unacceptable for us humans as skin is thinner than fur...thats why my dog can put up with my pups playing with them longer than I can.

Pfft is all that comes to mind. Poor Jacca.
Meg
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08-11-2010, 10:34 PM
Originally Posted by minihaha
I shall look forward to that with interest...
KW It has taken me a while to type my response and I see you have replied in the meantime ....
Originally Posted by Krusewalker View Post
watched couple vids

at first its hard to follow stuff as the picture quality is a bit poor and there is a weird clicking noise throughout (not the e collar)

but i noticed the jack lick his lips a few times and he kept his ears back, eyes and and head down for long periods of time.
he didnt look happy.

he licked his lip and ducked his head seconds before the collie ran out the river next to him.

the rest of the handling looked fair, the voice was pleasant and i saw a treat used once.
i havent read anyone elses posts before viewing the vids.
Is that it then KW , is that all you see including in the second video where the little terrier is on the lead
rune
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08-11-2010, 10:37 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Can I just point out that a few weeks prior to the vid he was due to be pts for aggression.

I wouldn't have taken him on otherwise I wasn't even looking for another dog and certainly not another jrt (sorry Finn). I only took him on to save him.

He had been aggressive to his owners and other people. In disputes over food he'd bitten his owners numerouse times (multi bite attacks) and had also randomly attacked them.

He was only ever walked on lead and muzzled after attacking other dogs on walks.

Feel free to take on a dog with that history people, and train it up as you like. He's now a teaching dog btw.

Btw what is that clicking its annoying.

Adam
I have and I did. Guess what---no e collar needed just trust and respect on both sides.

rune
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