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Gnasher
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Location: East Midlands, UK
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27-10-2013, 07:29 PM
Originally Posted by Julie View Post
Have you found an electric collar that doesn't give a shock ? Because no matter what you seem to think electric shocks hurt !
Yes!! None of the e collars deliver an electric shock - do you honestly think that an e collar is akin to an electric shock such as you would receive if you were daft enough to stick your fingers into an electric socket?
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by Tang View Post
I don't need your recommendations for 'good makes' of them because there are no circumstances under which I would use one of these on any animal. The photographs - thousands of them that show the burns and damage from e collars are not showing the sort of injuries caused by 'static' - static electricity doesn't leave injury marks!

You have gone on at length about just HOW BAD your dog was yet say you have only had to use an electric shock collar FIVE TIMES? Well how bad a dog is it that only needs correcting five times in how many years?
Tang - I am trying to be patient here. Have you not understood anything I have been saying? The whole point is that Ben IMMEDIATELY got it - the very first zap he had was virtually enough - I have tried to explain how it was a revolutionary moment - it was like the blindfold lifted from his eyes and he was saying to us "at last I am living with people whom I can respect". We did not achieve this through pain, or through fear. We achieved it through Ben understanding that there were human beings in the world who not only were not frightened of him, but could outsmart him. Dogs do not of course understand the concept of an e collar - all Ben knew was that somehow, as if by magic, we could stretch our hands across a short distance and stop him from behaving like a git and running off to do his own thing for 15 or 20 minutes. He "got it" immediately - because he is an extremely intelligent dog.

As for e collars leaving injuries, that sounds just a load of tosh to me - e collars do not administer an electric shock, they work by causing the muscles in the neck to contract - a bit like those slendertone machines that we had in the 70's. You would dampen the pads, strap them round your waist and turn on the power. They produced not an electric shock, but a something - I am not a scientist, I do not understand about electricity - but basically they made the muscles contract. It was not painful, but it was uncomfortable. To a dog, who knows no better, all he knows is that there is something causing the muscles in his neck to contract. If the force is too strong, the dog will yelp - not out of pain, but out of shock or surprise.

The very fact that the e collar worked so quickly in stopping Ben running off should be a cause for celebration, not villification. I am absolutely delighted that my husband was brave enough to use such a device, I was absolutely dead against it and told him be it on his own head when it all went belly up. As a medical scientist and a zoologist, I trusted him, and he did not let me down.
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by Meg View Post
I can't think of one situation where I would use an e collar.
I have a dog with a high prey drive who would chase sheep at the first opportunity even more so since we were attacked by a Ewe last spring . Ewes with lambs often paw the ground and put their head down in a pretend butt but on one occasion a Ewe came for us and I just managed to pull Chloe out of the way before she was trampled .

The remedy to chasing stock is simple, I don't let dogs off lead where there is stock . If I have a dog with poor recall (and this was the case with a dog I looked after) I would only let it it off in a secure area or on lunging rope.

If the time came where I could not control a dog without the use of pain I would cease to have dogs . I would rather rehome a dog or in an extreme case put it to sleep and know it is free from harm than to intentionally inflict pain on it because of my inadequacies.
That's fine Meg, that's you, but me, I was not prepared to condemn my boy to a life on the lead, or to euthanise him without one last attempt at something that yes, I found extremely distasteful, but as I have said before, with dogs you should never ever say never, and I am glad that my husband had the bollocks to use an e collar on Ben and not only save his life, but enable him to be the joyous, loveable, git that we adore. He is after all my grandson - I was prepared to do virtually anything to solve the huge problem that we had.
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by Lacey10 View Post
I am enjoying this discussion myself.Totally ignorant on the whole issue of e-collars and this is proving very informative without turning into a boxing ring,like you say...refreshing
So in your dogs case the collar is used basically to re-direct?Is that correct?
No, not really, to LISTEN to us. All his life Ben had been let down by humans - either by humans being cruel to him, or humans being too soppy. No-one had ever really listened to him, or understood him. Until he came to us. We had an advantage over everyone else of course because we had lived with his git of a father for 10 years, so we were "wolfie wise" for want of a better word. However, even we could not stop him from running off when the mood took him - he is after all a mal cross, and mals have a reputation for running and running and not coming back. Ben always came back, but in his own time. In the meantime, we had not a clue of what he had got up to. He could have worried sheep, chased horses, attacked other dogs, it was just totally unacceptable to allow this situation. The only choice was to keep him on the lead the whole time - out of the question, because we do not have the time or the level of fitness required to run or cycle for miles and miles every day to fulfil the dog's needs. The other choice was to euthanise - not an option without trying one last thing - an e collar.

The rest is history. I now have a dog who I can let off the lead even around sheep (not that I would, it is just not worth the risk, but I know I could if I had to). About a year ago we were walking our boys and my daughter's chihuahuas past a pheasant rearing area. The spinney that they were kept in was surrounded by tennis-court type netting, so no way could the dogs get in there. Unbeknown to us some idiot had taken down one of the panels of fencing, and of course all 4 dogs went straight in, sending pheasants everywhere. Guess which dog came back immediately he was called - Ben - leaving the other 3 rushing around out of control. Luckily no pheasant was injured, but I was so proud of Ben. He was wearing his e collar, but OH didn't even need to vibrate it, Ben recalled almost instantly.
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Mattie
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27-10-2013, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
Tang - I am trying to be patient here. Have you not understood anything I have been saying?
I find this insulting, it is you who changed the goal posts, first you said you used it because of aggression then it is for a recall. It is us being very patient with you.


The whole point is that Ben IMMEDIATELY got it - the very first zap he had was virtually enough - I have tried to explain how it was a revolutionary moment - it was like the blindfold lifted from his eyes and he was saying to us "at last I am living with people whom I can respect". We did not achieve this through pain, or through fear. We achieved it through Ben understanding that there were human beings in the world who not only were not frightened of him, but could outsmart him. Dogs do not of course understand the concept of an e collar - all Ben knew was that somehow, as if by magic, we could stretch our hands across a short distance and stop him from behaving like a git and running off to do his own thing for 15 or 20 minutes. He "got it" immediately - because he is an extremely intelligent dog.
I have to disagree with this, how did you get his used to the collar?

If you have had to use it about 5 times he didn't get it the first zap, if he had you would never have had to use it again. I can remember Bertie, one of the dogs that was going to be pts if I couldn't take him because he put several people in A & E, I accidentally stood on him, he was behind my feet and I didn't know he was there, he went to bite me, thankfully I had something in front so he didn't get me, then he cowered down expecting to be punished, instead I apologised to him, told him it wasn't his fault etc. Never again did this dog show this behaviour to me not matter what happened. Previously he had been punished for quite a few things and had been Alpha rolled to get him to submit, no wonder he was aggressive to humans, humans had been aggressive to him first.

As for e collars leaving injuries, that sounds just a load of tosh to me - e collars do not administer an electric shock, they work by causing the muscles in the neck to contract - a bit like those slendertone machines that we had in the 70's. You would dampen the pads, strap them round your waist and turn on the power. They produced not an electric shock, but a something - I am not a scientist, I do not understand about electricity - but basically they made the muscles contract. It was not painful, but it was uncomfortable. To a dog, who knows no better, all he knows is that there is something causing the muscles in his neck to contract. If the force is too strong, the dog will yelp - not out of pain, but out of shock or surprise.
Touch an electric stock wire, you will know that they do hurt, they do give you a shock. Yes these collars can do damage but usually there is something else with them. I have seen on forums owners who were distressed because of the damage the collars had done to the dogs necks, even flat collars can do a lot of damage to a dog. You have convinced yourself that the zapping of your dog doesn't hurt him, it does. Believe me I have tried a slendertone and they do not shock in any way even when turned up, they are not meant to shock but these collars are.

The very fact that the e collar worked so quickly in stopping Ben running off should be a cause for celebration, not villification. I am absolutely delighted that my husband was brave enough to use such a device, I was absolutely dead against it and told him be it on his own head when it all went belly up. As a medical scientist and a zoologist, I trusted him, and he did not let me down.
I could never celebrate the fact that a shock stopped the behaviour, it took about 5 shocks before your dog stopped doing what you didn't want him to do not one as you are sometimes saying. I had a son that would often run off when he was about 3 years old, roughly the same age mentally that dogs are, I would be prosecuted if I used something like an E collar on him but it seems that it is ok to use them on dogs.

Personally I would like to put one on those that use and promote them and keep zapping away but I can't and I would never do it to any animal, it is unnecessary and dogs learn better without them. Have you tried leaving the collar off when he is off lead? If not why not? They usually have to be worn for the rest of the dog's life, unlike positive training which does teach the dog which lasts for the rest of their lives.
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Heather and Zak
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27-10-2013, 09:26 PM
I wonder what will happen to the dogs when the e-collar is banned as it already is in Wales. The dogs are being trained with shocks and it won't take them long to suss they are no longer getting any pain for doing the unwanted behaviour.
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Chris
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27-10-2013, 09:40 PM
This might be of interest and it gives links to the very expensive, Defra funded study carried out by Lincoln University

http://www.apdt.co.uk/news/latest-re...ars-2013-06-21
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Mattie
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27-10-2013, 10:16 PM
Thanks Chris.

Do you still have my email address? It is the same one, I would love to catch up with you again, you helped me so much with my dogs. Remember Merlin doing a really good walk to heel with his nose in your pocket.
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SarahJade
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27-10-2013, 10:24 PM
Just wanted to share me thoughts on this. I personally hate the idea of e-collars, both the 'shock' kind and the spray even if it is just air. The only kind I could ever use is the vibrating one on a deaf dog and even then I would prefer something that vibrated on their shoulders attached to a harness rather than their necks.
I do however believe that if I were in Gnasher's shoes, after trying everything and anything else and having a dog that could not be rehomed or live the sort of life that's worth living I would also be tempted to try it. I mean if things are that bad, yes okay you are risking hurting the dog, but could it really get any worse. The dog is being tormented and tortured mentally the rest of it's poor life or being PTS, I would give it a few seconds of pain over the course of a week to see if it could be improved. If it got worse yeah I'd hate myself for hurting the poor thing but I'd hate myself more for not trying anything and everything.

Gnasher when you say that you 'zap' or 'vibrate' to remind Ben, can you explain further. I'm guessing that the first time it would have been higher than the reminders, or am I wrong? Would one of the vibrating collars not work in the same way, to remind him you are with him, get his attention back to you and help develop his recall and trust in you and your OH?
Also can you understand that many owners out their do not care as you do, and that they buy in the cheaper options which may be a substantial shock and I do mean electric shock for their dogs because they are too lazy to find better ways or to implement them. What advice do you give to anyone out and about who says 'Oh wow, I have a mal and he never comes back, should I get an e-collar?' or similar questions or to those who see your posts and think 'fantastic they do work, and in 3 years she has only had to shock her dog 5 times, lets go get one to stop our Fido doing X, Y or Z...'
I hope you don't think I am picking on you, but as stated before no one else has come forwards saying that they have used an e-collar and no one has said they have heard any positive results from them. I just honestly want to know more.

Also wanted to ask, having read that you only put it on for walks, what do you think to the auto ones, which react to a dog barking? Do you think that it is suitable to leave them on, and correcting the dog while you are out?
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Gnasher
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28-10-2013, 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I find this insulting, it is you who changed the goal posts, first you said you used it because of aggression then it is for a recall. It is us being very patient with you.




I have to disagree with this, how did you get his used to the collar?

If you have had to use it about 5 times he didn't get it the first zap, if he had you would never have had to use it again. I can remember Bertie, one of the dogs that was going to be pts if I couldn't take him because he put several people in A & E, I accidentally stood on him, he was behind my feet and I didn't know he was there, he went to bite me, thankfully I had something in front so he didn't get me, then he cowered down expecting to be punished, instead I apologised to him, told him it wasn't his fault etc. Never again did this dog show this behaviour to me not matter what happened. Previously he had been punished for quite a few things and had been Alpha rolled to get him to submit, no wonder he was aggressive to humans, humans had been aggressive to him first.



Touch an electric stock wire, you will know that they do hurt, they do give you a shock. Yes these collars can do damage but usually there is something else with them. I have seen on forums owners who were distressed because of the damage the collars had done to the dogs necks, even flat collars can do a lot of damage to a dog. You have convinced yourself that the zapping of your dog doesn't hurt him, it does. Believe me I have tried a slendertone and they do not shock in any way even when turned up, they are not meant to shock but these collars are.



I could never celebrate the fact that a shock stopped the behaviour, it took about 5 shocks before your dog stopped doing what you didn't want him to do not one as you are sometimes saying. I had a son that would often run off when he was about 3 years old, roughly the same age mentally that dogs are, I would be prosecuted if I used something like an E collar on him but it seems that it is ok to use them on dogs.

Personally I would like to put one on those that use and promote them and keep zapping away but I can't and I would never do it to any animal, it is unnecessary and dogs learn better without them. Have you tried leaving the collar off when he is off lead? If not why not? They usually have to be worn for the rest of the dog's life, unlike positive training which does teach the dog which lasts for the rest of their lives.
Do you know what - I just cannot be bothered to answer. You think what you like, I really don't care.

All I care about is my beloved boy Ben. He is happy, I am happy. That's what counts.

You just choose not to listen, that's fine, it is your entitlement. Ben has probably received around 5 zaps over a very very long period of time - well over a year. With a dog like Ben with a huge prey drive, once or twice he has forgotten himself and gone into hunting mode for a second. I don't call that a failure, I call that a huge success. You know nothing about my dog, you would not believe how much we have achieved over the nearly 3 years we have had him.
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