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Shona
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01-04-2010, 01:55 PM
Adam. Can I ask how many dogs you have had to use an e-collar on?
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Emma
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01-04-2010, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Emma and Lillypup

Re high drive dogs and stock. My experience is as follow as. High drive dogs are also high energy dogs, therefore they need lots of exercise (more than the average owner and long line can offer) often these dogs live in a situation were they could have a cracking lifestyle (lots of exercise ect) but can't because of the drive. By using an e collar you give these dogs the freedom they need to be fulifilled and keep them and livstock safe. Rehomiong is not an option for many dogs (rehoming centres put down 100s of perfectly good dogs every year) so the e collar alternative is a restricted lifestyle which leads to other problems. A some one who works with dogs everyday I've seen this happen again and again.
My own experience is different totally and that is on properties that hold horses and cattle and we were able to restrict the dogs when near cattle and had plenty of runs and fulfilling lives without the use of shock collars and no animal harmed. They are high prey driven dogs also.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Just list your questions and I will answer them. Your post are so long (like mine) that I pick the relevant points and miss others, sorry!
Will try not to be offended by that
First post
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
Would you be willing to use them on children to stop unwanted behaviour? As you suggest it is not cruel or painful (just uncomfortable semantics??) I would think not as it would be seen as inhumane?? Or do you think I should give it a go and create a whole new market for them??
If it is so humane why have they even thought of banning it?? If it is doing so much good with rescue dogs, why are most rescues against them?? Why are their studies showing it can do more harm than good?? Why are their cases of dogs becoming increasingly fearful or aggressive when e collars are used??
Second post to you
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
As for predatory drive in some dogs, some breed have a high prey drive, I would suggest to anyone, unwilling to accept that if they got the breed as quite lacking in foresight and research into the breed of dog they obtained. If they are unable to find a more humane way of dealing with their dogs wanting to chase, they should get professional help for their dog, not a person with a degree that wants to stop the behaviour immediately and with painful methods.
Prevention is the best cure. Conscientious breeders of predictably high drive puppies carefully screen prospective buyers to determine if they can offer the puppy a suitable lifestyle. Such owners will have a fenced yard, ample time in their schedule to exercise the dog, the physical ability to handle the dog properly, and sufficient knowledge of the breed and its characteristics. Allowing a non-suitable buyer to obtain such a puppy could inevitably end in disaster. A wise breeder will refer non-suitable buyers to pet-quality breeders where high drive dogs are not so prevalent, discuss the possibility of a more suitable breed for the client, or discourage dog ownership of any kind for those clients who lack the lifestyle for owning a dog.
from this site http://www.canismajor.com/dog/hidrive.html

Would you be willing to use them on children to stop unwanted behaviour? As you suggest it is not cruel or painful (just uncomfortable semantics??) I would think not as it would be seen as inhumane?? Or do you think I should give it a go and create a whole new market for them??

If it is so humane why have they even thought of banning it?? If it is doing so much good with rescue dogs, why are most rescues against them?? Why are their studies showing it can do more harm than good?? Why are their cases of dogs becoming increasingly fearful or aggressive when e collars are used??
Third post to you
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
Call it what you want, mild sensation, a tingle etc, it all leads to the same path, it is a negative feeling that the dog gets when shocked, you will also find there is no rule on the current of electric sensation that e-collars deliver they all vary. It is still cruel, if it can't go on humans then why should it be put on animals???
lost count
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
Why is it okay to use them?

Why high prey driven dogs require them, instead of teaching the owners of their specific breed of dog and if animals are around a collar and lead (or long time) is preferable to shocking the dog?

Why you refuse to believe it does not enhance the handler/dog relationship as dogs are not thinking the way you say, they percieve things differently to us?

Why it can not be the fault of the handler the dog is not learning rather than the dog not not doing as instructed? And an e-collar being the solution?

I would rather you answer these questions than avoid them, by side tracking to a line in a study and not answer to why you have studied at university on animal behaviour and welfare and still think it is a knee jerk reaction by banning them??
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
, I know these were directed at other poster but could not sit quietly as you still defend e-collars and see no harm in them or any studies that have found the e-collars are not very humane, seriously, you talk of sensation what do you think that sensation is??????? It is an electric current, it is not a pleasant sensation.
If the dog looks and the button is pressed and no verbal or lead pulled, the dog is not going to know what to stop, you later say you do use the lead or a verbal command, in some studies they have found dogs can actually see it as the shock comes with the lead pull or command and not the behaviour you are trying to correct. Why is it you are not able to admit to the faults in e-collars??

You even say it quickly stops the dog from reacting in your experience, so admitting it is a quick fix option. Not a good reason for using e-collars.
Originally Posted by Emma View Post
Re your use of the e-collar to glancing at sheep, if all that takes place in 2/3 seconds, the dog could mix the look and the pull of the lead as to why they are getting painful stimuli and result it the dog relating the tug of the lead with pain not the glance. There is too much room for error and to believe you have had nothing but positive outcomes (short term) is only to conclude your experience with them is limited and what is more dangerous is your belief that it is a good method to attempt to extinguish predatory behaviour and no adjustment to your clients perception of their breed of dog. Predatory behaviour is in all dogs to different extents, but if they have chosen a dog with high prey drive and now find that behaviour as unacceptable they need to learn to live with it and look at methods of curbing rather than attempting to distinguish a behaviour inbuilt for hundreds or thousands of years as they are the ones who did the wrong thing not the dog.
Instead of repeating myself will show you what I actually wrote and questioned in which I see avoidance behaviour on your behalf in answering them, and am finding this a curious pattern in your discussion of e-collars as every time you avoid answering them, I am coming to the conclusion you will not answer them due to their being no other answer than the e-collar having negative issues associated with them which you refuse to acknowledge.
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Why should I need study's I know what I know and as I'm they only one here with practical experience of the tool I think that's most important.
You state you did a degree in animal behaviour and welfare, I am firstly interested
animal behaviour - How does it fit in with what behaviour should be accepted as nature of dogs?
Animal welfare - How you can to your conclusion from learning about animal welfare and allowing electric shocks to be a motivator?
If you are only running off your own 'I know what I know' attitude, that is not good enough, like in the history of surgery, they knew they didn't need to wash their hands to spread infection, the guy who brought it up was ridiculed to the point he left, decades later they did studies to prove it. Moral of the story, just because that is the way you have always done it does not make it right.
Also studies give you a larger group that study specifics and as one study showed the handlers still had no clue the dog was displaying fear and stress symptoms. I could continue on what studies can give you but will stop as I am writing masses again
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Re toddlers, no I wouldn't. Toddlers don't have much prey drive though do they?
Ummmmmm yeap, you should see the ones who try to chase my dog to 'play' with him and him running for the hill, e-collars would come in handy.
Would go to a day care centre and see the hitting, biting, and other things children do, if e-collars were as effective as you say it might work wonders.
For the older kids, the ones who hang in packs, preying on the elderly to steal their bags, causing them physical and psychological stress, yes e-collars could be great. Also the ones who threw rocks/stakes at my neighbours windows would be fab for them also...........and the list could go on and on
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Emma
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01-04-2010, 02:01 PM
Sorry I think my post got bigger rather than smaller
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Adam P
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01-04-2010, 09:35 PM
Sibevibe.

Yes I would. I would explain to the owners it might take an extra session and that the dog might need the collar for longer but I would do it.

I've recently finished working with a malamute who klled three sheep. By the end of the 3rd session the owner could run at sheep the dog would follow then stop and move away.

With any idependant breed I would also use the collar to enforce recall.

With regards to strength of sensation. The coat doesn't matter as the contact points touch the skin. A thick coat may need longer contacts though, but the strength is uneffected.

There's a therory northern breeds have less sensitive skin than regular dogs due to the harsh conditions in their background but It's never played out for me. The malamute was on the same level as a collie I'd recently worked with with the collar. There's a similar therory about lads as they evolved to work in icy conditions, also never played out with me.

Even if a dog has a higher level than normal that does't mean he feels it different just that he's less sensitive.

Shona, about 15. As I say not a big part of my training.

Lillypup.
I actually don't like invisible fences (except to back up a real fence) but at times they are appropriate.
Most of my work is with dogs who either ignore the recall and chase or who look for opportunities to get loose and chase. I'd never advise jsut letting a dog roam. Even if he avoids sheep he could still get shot for being in the field with them!
I'm pleased you've had success with high drive dogs. I too have drivy dogs and don't need e collars for mine, what makes us different from some of my clients? Who knows the reality is I do meet people who need e collars.

Tassle

My experience is people have either no experience of them or have seen them used (or expect them to be used) big shock! Most of the time when training I have to tell an owner when I'm using the collar it's that subtle. Passers by aren't even aware the dog is wearing one.

Re pain, I would suggest if a dog recieved a totaly alien stimulus (e;g one it never felt before, unlike your dogs back) It would react to it in the way it felt it. If it was pain the dog would jump, startle, or yelp. The dog doesn't. Nore does the dog wince, brace it's self, or give off appeasing signals. I can get my dogs to give the excat same response to e collar sensation by just pointing at the ground.

Emma. Your post length is no problem. To answer your questions as I see them.

1. High drive and managment.
Alsas not everyone has enough space or opportunity's to do so. Space is at a premium in the uk. MANY country homes will involve going out the door and encountering sheep in close proximity. A home with sheep (or whatever) may be a perfect home if the drive can be controlled and redirected.

2. can't use on humans why animals.
Because there not humans and we're unable to deal with there behaviour in the same way. An e collar is no harsher than many of the things done to control human behaviour anyway. In fact often its gentler and is immediate.

3. SENSATION ASSOCCIATION.

The sensation occurs immediatly when the dog looks, the lead is used after the sensation. No association is made.

4. Negative issues
Used at a low level there is no negative issues.

5. Speed of training
If the next incident results in death speed is important.

Re toddler' I have no experience but would say. There not dogs! so comparing training is pointless. A dog wouldn't understand an after the event reward several minutes later would it!

6. behaviour and welfare.
nr is the commonest training method, this was covered on the course. Welfare. nr does not impact on welfare.

If you bullet point the questions I'll answer better. Just to make sure I cover everything, this is not rudness. I believe I've covered your points. I just want to make sure.

Adam
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Shona
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01-04-2010, 09:37 PM
Hi Adam, thanks for that,

How long have you been using e-collars?
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Tupacs2legs
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01-04-2010, 10:15 PM
Adam......
northern breeds are not all about 'Drive' using an e-collar is no magic fix to a dogs natural makeup,no amount of 'pain' disguised as training can change it,and why would you want tomy answer...dog like a sibe...if u cant keep em away from livestock,dont get em!!
if your bugged by recall ...dont get em!!
and dont try to pretend you know 'northern breeds' as you clearly do not as you feel a e - collar is a perfectly ok thing to use.....trainer or bully???
bugged from london
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SibeVibe
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01-04-2010, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Sibevibe.

Yes I would. I would explain to the owners it might take an extra session and that the dog might need the collar for longer but I would do it.

I've recently finished working with a malamute who klled three sheep. By the end of the 3rd session the owner could run at sheep the dog would follow then stop and move away.
With any idependant breed I would also use the collar to enforce recall.

With regards to strength of sensation. The coat doesn't matter as the contact points touch the skin. A thick coat may need longer contacts though, but the strength is uneffected.

There's a therory northern breeds have less sensitive skin than regular dogs due to the harsh conditions in their background but It's never played out for me. The malamute was on the same level as a collie I'd recently worked with with the collar. There's a similar therory about lads as they evolved to work in icy conditions, also never played out with me.

Even if a dog has a higher level than normal that does't mean he feels it different just that he's less sensitive.
Thank you for taking the time to reply Adam

Would you then say this dog would be safe to let off lead around livestock for the rest of it's life?

Do you have any experience with working sled dogs?

Sorry Adam, more questions

Take care of yourself.

Seoniad
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Emma
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02-04-2010, 08:54 AM
High Prey drive Management, there are many owners who have high prey driven dogs and manage without using these methods, as Tupac2legs said don't get them if you don't want this behaviour.
- Why aren't you explaining the breed of dog to the owners somethings they have to deal with as it is instilled into them for hundreds or thousands of years?
- With more consistency, effort, time and understanding some determined dog breeds, do you not think e-collars would not need to be used?
- Re using them on children - they are sponges of their environment and experiences and go through different growth stages, and e-collar would speed up the process and would stop having to repetitively say no all the time and curb their unwanted behaviours.
- You say that e-collars are no harsher than many things to control human behaviour, so according to your theory they could correct children's behaviour quicker than verbal reprimands, so why not on humans?
- NR has been the basis of a lot of training in the past on many animals including humans, such as hitting, yelling, hurting them. There are laws against hitting children now. With horses there is now a humane way to train them. Not sure if you know of Monty Roberts, but his method of training horses is the new way and is not about breaking them in but bonding with them and using body language to communicate not tying them up and scaring them. I have used old and new methods of this in the past, and the kinder Monty Roberts method is much quicker and kinder way, and would never use the old harsher methods ever again.
-Re speed of training (and following incidents), I get that people want to see results quickly but quick fixes are just that quick and not as ingrained as if you did repetitive positive based training rather than shocking them to see results quickly and owners need to be educated in their dog of choice and what measures they need to implement during on going training, not just waiting for a quick fix to solve their problems. If death is the next step if they do what they are doing, you can not with any certainty fix them the same day, so measures need to be taken to keep their dog safe no matter what method you use. What type of discussions do you have with the owners??
- In what situations do you see them as fit for use? and what situations unsuitable?
-You talk of not needing studies, why? do you not think they hold merit to the techniques they use and the results on a larger scale than 'just what I know' as you may not have used them extensively enough yet to have a bad reaction to them and it is only just a matter of time until you do, as you seem oblivious to the fact?
- University degrees normally require studies and would have thought you would know the reasoning behind wanting to see more than just, what you know?
-Please explain who they work if they don't as you say cause any pain or discomfort, then what are the dogs stopping their behaviour for?
- I think if people are going to use them they should be able to admit to the truth of them, they are collars that emit an electrical pulse and causes pain to some level on the dog. The only people they are fooling are themselves. I even read a person who uses them to use words other than 'shock' collars so you can manipulate peoples perception of them
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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...
Why should I need study's I know what I know and as I'm they only one here with practical experience of the tool I think that's most important.
Adam, those are not the words of a degree educated person, as you claim to be! You must know full well that that is not how things work - you do need to look at studies, and if you don't then you are missing out and short changing your clients.

It's not only degree educated people who do this - it's those who do other courses too, eg foundation degrees, various dog courses, etc. and indeed anyone who really is interested in the background and current work and knowledge.

Re toddlers, no I wouldn't. Toddlers don't have much prey drive though do they?
Ah, but you and others who use shock collars also recommend them highly for BASIC training ie Sit, Recall etc. So the analogy is very relevant, IMHO....


Wswige

You may dislike nr but it is the commonest used approach to training for animals around the world, all draft animal training is based around nr, ridden horses are trained with nr. Most large mammals (horses, cows, sheep ect) and handled and managed with nr.
I don't dislike all forms of negative reinforcement, although I am very wary of its use. For example, recently Dr Andrew McLean has been doing some sterling work with elephants in Nepal using a very very gentle form of it (no shock collars!! or pain implements) and I totally support his work.

It is, however, very different to what goes on with shock collars, in the sense that the animal's welfare is absolute top priority and the actual goal of the work is highly improved elephant welfare.

He and others such as McGreevy, Goodwin, Mills, and others are using it to improve the welfare of horses, also. But again it is used incredibly carefully and the view is of only increasing animal welfare.

Using negative reinforcement via harsh use of whips, spurs, etc is pretty much against animal welfare, I'd say....

Wys
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Wysiwyg
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02-04-2010, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
...I don't believe e colalrs cause pain. Why because I know dogs and can easily read sigs of pain....
Adam, I can't believe this. You are saying you don't believe they can cause pain?? Why would you say that...?!

What model/make do you use?

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