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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by jesterjenn View Post
...

I don't think banning them is the answer. I think, in the right hands, like all training equipment, they can be a very effective at training a dog out of a behaviour.
What sort of behaviour out of interest?
I work with dogs and owners like others on here, and cannot think of one time when I'd even need to use one

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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 07:51 AM
Re predatory chasing - I know some people use ecollars but some use other methods (and these people live in areas such as Cumbria/Somerset etc so chock full of sheep).

Here is one:

http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/how-do-...y-dog-chasing/

There is also Angela Stockdale who does not use or agree with the use of ecollars, and Roger Mugford who will use spray collars but totally disagrees with shock collars.

These are all successful trainers, stopping predatory chasing but without using the dreaded shock collar.

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wilbar
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25-03-2010, 08:28 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Unfortunatly I think it will cause more problems than it solves. Used properly there very humane and far less aversive to the dog than any other training tool, even compared to positive only training they cause lss stress by only motivating the dog slightly as opposed to having the dog desperate to get the treat or toy.

Lots of times you can't solve a prey drive type behaviour problem without them (certainly not in a realistic timescale). While many trainers ect will then say the dogs managment comes into it (keep on lead around stock) this just isn't fair on the dog in many cases and leads to other issues (destructivness due to lack of exercise). Rehoming is not an option as there just aren't that many homes available for every dog with a training problem. And even if the dog is rehomed to an area without livestock it may immediatly redirect the prey drive onto cats and be back in the same boat.

Ultimatly this will mean more dogs in rescue and more dogs put down. It will also lead to an increase in severe aversive methods for off lead control, certainly you can cure some dogs of their predatory aggression without e collars but the cure is usually emotionally devastating to the dog.

I believe many e collar users will continue using the collars in secret which will lead to them being used in the old style high level correction. Once again more stress than needs be for the dog.

In the past year I've seen what can be achieved with an e collar and have saved several dogs lives. I really think this ban is short sighted.

Adam
On the off chance that your post wasn't a wind up & that you truly believe in the use of e-collars then I have to strongly disagree with you (& that applies to the use of any type of collars that use strong smells, puffs of air, or prongs etc).

I don't understand how you can possibly say that e-collars are humane & less aversive than any other training tool. There is a wealth of scientific evidence that demonstrates the huge shock & stress that these collars cause dogs, & most of the veterinary world, charitable rescue & welfare agencies & behavioural & dog training organisations have condemned the use of e-collars.

What do you mean when you say that e-collars "cause less stress by only motivating the dog slightly"? I would think that an electric shock is a HUGE motivating factor that causes pain, stress, panic & possibly fear aggression. Is that really what a dog lover would want to do to their much loved pet?

As for solving a behavioural problem like predatory aggression, there are much easier & kinder ways to prevent incidents of predatory aggression ~ the simplest one being don't go near livestock!!! But using an e-collar to prevent predatory aggression is fraught with dangers & can so easily be misused & mistimed as to result in horrendous incidents. I expect most people have heard of the dogs wearing e-collars who were shocked to prevent them running off at the same time as a small dog came round the corner. The dogs associated the sight of the small dog with the electric shock & immediately savaged it to death in front of the distraught owner.

As for saying that keeping a dog on lead around livestock isn't fair & can cause destructiveness due to lack of exercise ~ I am frankly amazed that you can say this. There are so many other ways to provide physical exercise & mental stimulation that don't involve livestock or arousing predatory aggression, so why on earth would putting a lead on a dog to prevent attacks on livestock on the odd occasion that you have to go near livestock, cause destructiveness?

I could say a lot more about the use of e-collars etc but I suspect that I've just been had by a wind up merchant ~ so I'll leave it here.
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ClaireandDaisy
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25-03-2010, 09:08 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post

In the past year I've seen what can be achieved with an e collar and have saved several dogs lives. I really think this ban is short sighted.

Adam
Well, you know, just because you`ve seen some people torturing dogs doesn`t really cut much ice on proving anything.
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jesterjenn
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25-03-2010, 10:52 AM
Originally Posted by Wysiwyg View Post
What sort of behaviour out of interest?
I work with dogs and owners like others on here, and cannot think of one time when I'd even need to use one

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Mainly predatory (sp?) behaviours. All the training practices I have used with Jess haven't worked with regards to her kicking off at other dogs. We have seen one behaviourist, and been to 3 training classes with her, and still hasn't helped it. I would contemplate using a shock collar if I was shown by a professional how to use one and was happy with them trying it on me first.

When shock collars are used, it is one thing saying they hurt on us (I don't see how a static impulse hurts, and yes, I have tried one on myself and it didn't hurt), BUT when a dog is in that hightened sense of excitement, their adrenaline is going to be pumping, so pain sensors decrease in sensitivity.

For some unknown reason I tried a half check on myself the other day and that hurt A LOT more than I thought it would, and also a lot more than the shock collar did.

It is just one of these topics though that I'll agree to disagree as I don't want to argue about it. There are always going to be for and againsts, but hey, that is what makes us individuals
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Cassius
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25-03-2010, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Unfortunatly I think it will cause more problems than it solves. Used properly there very humane and far less aversive to the dog than any other training tool, even compared to positive only training they cause lss stress by only motivating the dog slightly as opposed to having the dog desperate to get the treat or toy.

Exactly why do you thnk the e-collars are humane when there is evidence to suggest otherwise? nad exactly how is this methods less versive than any other training tool? I take it youv'e done extensive research yourself into each and every training tool on the market to be able to state this?
How does it only motivatethe dog only slightly? The reactions of dogs that I've seen wearing them are certainly not slight. The dogs are clearly being hurt. hav you seent e recent CM video clip with the GSD?


Lots of times you can't solve a prey drive type behaviour problem without them (certainly not in a realistic timescale). While many trainers ect will then say the dogs managment comes into it (keep on lead around stock) this just isn't fair on the dog in many cases and leads to other issues (destructivness due to lack of exercise). Rehoming is not an option as there just aren't that many homes available for every dog with a training problem. And even if the dog is rehomed to an area without livestock it may immediatly redirect the prey drive onto cats and be back in the same boat.

Why is it not fair on the dog to keep it on lead around livestock. After all, this in itself could save the dog's life when it's NOT shot by a farmer. There's no reason why dogs who are on lead around livestock have to miss out on exercise. The owners can take them to places where there aren't any livestock. Hardly rocket science is it

Ultimatly this will mean more dogs in rescue and more dogs put down. It will also lead to an increase in severe aversive methods for off lead control, certainly you can cure some dogs of their predatory aggression without e collars but the cure is usually emotionally devastating to the dog.

Why shouold more dogs end up in rescue or being destroyed? Where is your evidence of this? Maybe owners who use these could actually make an effort to train their dogs properly instead of taking the easy, lazy and harmful way out. Also, I'd say thatthe use of such colalrs woul dbe more emotioanlly devastating to a dog than taking the time to use positive methods.

I believe many e collar users will continue using the collars in secret which will lead to them being used in the old style high level correction. Once again more stress than needs be for the dog.

The use of these collars full stop i smore stress than any dog needs. Iv'e never used any such devices on any of my dogs and yes I've had rescues with severe problems before now. I took the time to train them, not once ever hurting them.

In the past year I've seen what can be achieved with an e collar and have saved several dogs lives. I really think this ban is short sighted.

Adam
.................................................. ............................
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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by jesterjenn View Post
Mainly predatory (sp?) behaviours. All the training practices I have used with Jess haven't worked with regards to her kicking off at other dogs. We have seen one behaviourist, and been to 3 training classes with her, and still hasn't helped it. I would contemplate using a shock collar if I was shown by a professional how to use one and was happy with them trying it on me first.
Aggression is one thing they really shouldn't be used for... predatory chasing they don't need to be used for, in all honesty.This is my opinion, but it's supported by the people who work daily with very hard cases (including predatory chasing, aggression, etc).

When shock collars are used, it is one thing saying they hurt on us (I don't see how a static impulse hurts, and yes, I have tried one on myself and it didn't hurt), BUT when a dog is in that hightened sense of excitement, their adrenaline is going to be pumping, so pain sensors decrease in sensitivity.
I wonder if you've been listening to certain people on the net who profess the collars don't hurt. It wasn't so long ago that they professedthe collars did not ever hurt at all, and they were lying. They don't hurt if they aren't turned up, but this is usually for a different sort of training where the collars are used as teaching tools, something I personally find abhorrent as the dog has to learn to turn off the stimulus and it's under pressure all the time. I've seen too many videos of shock collar training by many people (gundog trainers, pete owners, franchises, the lot) to ever be impressed by their methods or their force.

Re static pulse - you can turn the collars right up and believe me it is incredibly painful (depends on model etc). An acquaintance of mine who used them agreed that in the wrong hands they were torture. I'd add to that that in the right hands they could also be torture, sadly
To shock a dog for chasing sheep at the time, you have to have it painful and high.

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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 11:57 AM
For anyone interested in finding out more about why shock collars need to be banned, have a gander at this. The first part is interesting, but the second part, the Case Histories, is very illuminating indeed.

These are real case histories.

Even if shock collars did help some dogs, the fact that so many (tip of the iceberg) have suffered (read about the deaf dog, the dobe and the others... so sad.... ) it is truly good news that we are at last moving hopefullly towards a complete ban in the whole of the UK...;

http://www.apbc.org.uk/sites/default...nsultation.pdf

Pages 1-5 are interesting, they refer to the Welsh consultation questions.

Pages 6 onwards are the Case Histories. Here's a taster:



1.1 Fourteen-month-old Border Collie.It was taken to a dog trainer who repeatedly exposed
it to sheep and electric shock from the collar. It does not now chase sheep, but its anxiety levels are extremely high. The chase problem had transferred onto cars and deer (for which it hadn’t been shocked) ...... It lost confidence in the
owner and obedience training broke down because it had become so defensive. Its only form of enjoyment was chasing, so it began to chase cars and deer, obviously an inherently dangerous practice.

Expert Behavioural Opinion
The electric collar worked to stop this dog chasing sheep, but because chase behaviour is breed specific and therefore internally rewarded through endorphin release, the dog needs an alternative outlet for it. Pain caused
whilst chasing sheep was not enough to control the behaviour when directed towards other outlets, but it is likely that it contributed to an increase in
general levels of anxiety (the apprehension of being exposed to a fear inducing stimulus). The increase in overall anxiety resulted in the dog failing to
cope with a previously manageable slight fear of other dogs and the display of aggression.

The dog previously only had a recall problem. After using the electric collar its problems increased significantly.


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Wysiwyg
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25-03-2010, 12:02 PM
Same link, a dog was put to sleep due to use of an electric collar:

1.2 Twenty-month-old Doberman.

The owners were particularly bothered about the bitch’s lack of recall and a
‘behaviourist’ introduced them to the remote control electric shock collar.
Very quickly the bitch started to associate being let off the lead with pain and
would start jumping and grabbing at the owners as soon as they let her off
lead. They punished this with a shock. She then started to get aggressive when they tried to put the lead on to go out of the house so they shocked her.

Eventually the family was in fear of getting up in the night to go to the
bathroom in case they disturbed the dog and she attacked.
When I met this bitch she was thin, her coat was dull and full of scurf. She did
not settle for 1.5 hours after my arrival and during that time was running
around the house grabbing at things randomly and circling.

The behaviour
had reached the stage where, despite starting to implement my modification
plan, the family became so afraid of their dog that they had her put to sleep a
few weeks after my visit.

Expert Behavioural Opinion
The Doberman reacted to the pain of the electric collar with aggression, ....

So basically they had a not particularly easy youngster which the use of the shock collar made the dog aggressive and unpredictable... so sad

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ClaireandDaisy
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25-03-2010, 12:44 PM
If it didn`t hurt it wouldn`t work. So it`s a method of inflicting pain. So normal people don`t use them because they don`t like inflicting pain on their pets. Simples!
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