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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by Julie View Post
Now to me that is the problem I have seen dogs traumatised by abuse who still return time and again to their owner, they tend not to bite the person who abuses them. Which is why they are such loving companions of course but also why we have a duty of care not to use anything that hurts them when we are training them.
I'm sure - but Ben isn't "any dog", he is MY dog, and I can swear on my recently departed darling father's ashes that he is COMPLETELY unphased by anything to do with his e collar. I wish I could video him so you could see how happy he is - if you knew me, you would know how much I worship dogs, I would never ever ever do anything to hurt my or anyone else's dogs.
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Mattie View Post
I have had dogs in this category as well, all were taught a good recall with positive methods, 2 had tasted blood on sheep, one of the was a good killing machine when rabbits, voles, pheasants and squirrels were around yet I could get her to recall once she was in the chase. If I can do it so can most people. It is just a matter of traintraintraintrain.

When I first got Joe his previous owner had beaten him for coming back, if he was loose he was terrified of coming back to me, it took me 4 years to find the key to him coming back. He was an abused dog that I had to work through his terror, I did. A well known person with E collars told me he would have got a good recall from Joe within 14 days, once I found the key to Joe it took 10 days from being a terrified dog to having a 99% recall, much faster than the E collar. I first taught him that a clicker meant he was safe to come to me, once he worked that out I had his recall. That was the first time I heard of a clicker, I didn't know how to use it properly but it still worked, if I used an E collar wrong it would do a lot of damage to the dog. Positive training doesn't do the damage when you get it wrong that other methods do, to me that is a very good reason to use positive methods.
I'm pretty fed up with repeating myself Mattie I have stated over and over again we tried ALL and EVERYTHING that we could think of, everything that I had ever read about, and then THREE separate behaviourists came to see Ben, the first recommended euthanasia unless we were prepared to keep him on the lead 24/7 and muzzled, which we were not, and the last 2 said euthanasia, keep him on the lead 24/7 and muzzled or call in an expert on the use of e collars.

It was a no brainer.
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Julie
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27-10-2013, 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I'm sure - but Ben isn't "any dog", he is MY dog, and I can swear on my recently departed darling father's ashes that he is COMPLETELY unphased by anything to do with his e collar. I wish I could video him so you could see how happy he is - if you knew me, you would know how much I worship dogs, I would never ever ever do anything to hurt my or anyone else's dogs.

Have you found an electric collar that doesn't give a shock ? Because no matter what you seem to think electric shocks hurt !
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by Florence View Post
I'm not a fan of electric shock collars, in fact I hate them and think they should not be available to the public in the way they are at the moment. I believe in 99% of the cases they are abused and cause more harm than good. I firmly believe in positive, reward based methods and even more in methods that use the dogs natural social communication.

Having said that, I don't know how you used it exactly and what your dog is like. I have no experience in wolf hybrids, but I know they are not like our dogs and can be much more difficult. Wolves and hybrids aren't as attached to their humans like normal dogs, so training them with positive methods might not work in the same way, I'm not sure. (I think because of that, those dogs shouldn't be bred because we can't give them the life they need but as I understand it, your Ben was a rescue?)
So, I'm not in a position to judge you for using an e-collar on your dog. Nor am I able to say whether your dog is scared, traumatised or anything like that as I've never met him. I don't think any of us can. It seems like you put a lot of thoughts into it and didn't make the decision lightly.
I still believe that there are probably different ways of dealing with Ben's problem, but sometimes that can take years and if you didn't want to just manage his problems during that time and keep him on a lead at all times, that was your decision. Again, I'm a bit on the fence here because I still don't agree with e-collars in general but without knowing the situation and without being able to provide an actual solution to your problem, I have to accept that in your case it helped you and your dog.
A very sensible post Florence - thank you.

You are right - wc's, in fact ALL northern breeds like huskies and mals etc., are very different from non-northern breeds. For starters, they tend to be supremely intelligent and think outside the box more than "ordinary" dogs. My Ben accepted INSTANTLY that suddenly we had this invisible lead connecting him to us, and the expression of dawning on his face had to be seen to be believed. He "got it" instantly - he has probably received less than 5 zaps from us in his whole life, that is how effective the collar is. He LOVES wearing it because he knows it means walkies - he bounds around in excitement thrusting his massive head into your groin in an attempt to force the collar on quickly ... hardly a dog who is traumatised by such a device!!
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Mattie
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27-10-2013, 10:48 AM
For those that would like to know more about these collars, have a look at these sites, some are for the fences but the principles is the same:

http://www.companionanimalpsychology...k-collars.html

http://www.puppyplease.com/shockcollars.html

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/shockcollars

http://www.dogremedies.com/dangers_c...nch_shock.html

http://www.ehow.com/facts_5273389_da...nces-dogs.html
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Julie
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27-10-2013, 10:57 AM
I won't be looking mainly because I have felt an electric shock before and know how much it hurts no matter what anyone who advocates their use is saying.
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by Tang View Post
never knew about e-collars until I joined this site (along with loads of other stuff I didn't know about util then!) everything I read about them says they should not be used to control aggression and never used when a dog is 'fighting'. Giving the reason as it will make the dog think the other dog is 'inflicting the pain'. That confirms that they do cause PAIN.

BUT and for me this is a bit BUT .... that rather depends doesn't it on the OWNER who is in control of delivering the burn or shock fully appreciating that fact?

As was said on the thread about dogs attacking - people often behave totally unpredictably when in those situations and I'd bet my life that there are some owners whose dogs were wearing these and they DID use them in those circumstances.

And if anyone can buy one I'd also bet some who buy them don't give a fig about the advice that comes with them. If all dog owners were 'responsible' we wouldn't read so many stories involving those who arent'. I know this is true anyway because I've also been reading about horrific injuries and burns inflicted on dogs due to the use of them. And, apparently, they can 'malfunction' too and have done so when exposed to rain. And older ones are more dangerous than newer ones.

Therefore, on balance, I think it would be safer and better if they were just not allowed to be sold at all.

If you google 'shock collar burns' you will plainly see that it is not the case that everyone who buys and uses these is doing so in the fashion that Gnasher describes - and the use of the word 'buzz' instead of 'shock' to me is just trying to make them sound harmless.
I have used one on myself on a fairly high setting - 20 - and the pain it inflicts is similar to a static shock you can get off a lift button or when you touch your car door - unpleasant, but not painful - it is more surprise than pain - you shriek out "oh!" because it has made you jump. It is exactly like those children's games - my daughter had one - where you all hold one of the spurs and the winner is the one who can hold on long enough - can't remember what they are called.

If you buy a good make - Dogtra is the best - they are completely safe and waterproof. Ben goes swimming in his. If you buy a cheap one, then of course you are asking for trouble.
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Gnasher
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27-10-2013, 11:12 AM
Incidentally ... I have been meaning to say, but keep forgetting ... how very pleasant and adult it is to have this discussion about THE most controversial subject regarding dogs, but it has not slid down into the gutter, as in the past.

I am never shy of stating my mind, and care not a fig what anyone thinks of me, or says about me, but nonetheless it is a refreshing change to be able to have an adult debate on a controversial subject. Thanx everyone.
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Mattie
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27-10-2013, 11:52 AM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I have used one on myself on a fairly high setting - 20 - and the pain it inflicts is similar to a static shock you can get off a lift button or when you touch your car door - unpleasant, but not painful - it is more surprise than pain - you shriek out "oh!" because it has made you jump. It is exactly like those children's games - my daughter had one - where you all hold one of the spurs and the winner is the one who can hold on long enough - can't remember what they are called.

If you buy a good make - Dogtra is the best - they are completely safe and waterproof. Ben goes swimming in his. If you buy a cheap one, then of course you are asking for trouble.
Everyone feels pain differently, some people can cope with more pain than others and you can build up your tolerance to pain. Dogs are the same, some dogs only have to think they have felt pain and they scream, other dogs, especially those used for fighting, have a very high tolerance to pain.

Because something doesn't hurt us doesn't mean it doesn't hurt someone else or dogs.

That argument doesn't make any difference to me, I have a high tolerance to pain because I am in pain all the time, but a shock from the car hurts.
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Strangechilde
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27-10-2013, 12:43 PM
They should be illegal, even for people who claim to be dog handlers, just as shock therapy is illegal for humans. Never, anywhere.
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