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Chris
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10-11-2010, 11:18 AM
I've seen Adam's writings on this and other forums, as you say, always about using e-collars and more often than not using the very tired and emotive 'use or pts' argument to try prove his point, but, challenging Adam (the man), rather than challenging the methodology he advocates detracts from the very real, in my opinion, welfare threat that e-collars pose.

Animal behaviour is a very broad subject, covering all types of animals and not just dogs and usually only briefly touches on learning theory and application so is not an assurance that someone with a qualification in this area is bound to know about dog behaviour and psychology in any great depth.

However, that aside, whether or not a handler uses an e-collar believing that they only give the equivalent of a tap on the throat, or whether they inflict pain (which I happen to believe they do more often than not) doesn't alter the fact that they still have an impact on welfare.

There are many video clips around the net of e-collars being used during training and I've yet to see one that doesn't show a dog giving obvious signs of stress and anxiety. Some dogs may overcome this as the training completes and the collar is discarded (which they rarely are), others will be damaged to an extent where the owners literally give up and the dog takes that one way trip to the vets anyway, in some cases taking that trip when the initial problem could have easily been solved by other methods .

It's not only sad and unnecessary, it's an appalling state of affairs. The sooner there is a universal ban the better (in my opinion). It will serve to end debates on this method and save dogs from being subjected to this particular form of remote infliction of physical discomfort (to any degree)
Meg
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10-11-2010, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
I've seen Adam's writings on this and other forums, as you say, always about using e-collars and more often than not using the very tired and emotive 'use or pts' argument to try prove his point, but, challenging Adam (the man), rather than challenging the methodology he advocates detracts from the very real, in my opinion, welfare threat that e-collars pose.

Animal behaviour is a very broad subject, covering all types of animals and not just dogs and usually only briefly touches on learning theory and application so is not an assurance that someone with a qualification in this area is bound to know about dog behaviour and psychology in any great depth.

However, that aside, whether or not a handler uses an e-collar believing that they only give the equivalent of a tap on the throat, or whether they inflict pain (which I happen to believe they do more often than not) doesn't alter the fact that they still have an impact on welfare.

There are many video clips around the net of e-collars being used during training and I've yet to see one that doesn't show a dog giving obvious signs of stress and anxiety. Some dogs may overcome this as the training completes and the collar is discarded (which they rarely are), others will be damaged to an extent where the owners literally give up and the dog takes that one way trip to the vets anyway, in some cases taking that trip when the initial problem could have easily been solved by other methods .

It's not only sad and unnecessary, it's an appalling state of affairs. The sooner there is a universal ban the better (in my opinion). It will serve to end debates on this method and save dogs from being subjected to this particular form of remote infliction of physical discomfort (to any degree)
Hi Brierley I'm sorry but I disagree that challenging people like Adam detracts from the welfare threat posed by e collars.

I would like to know Adam's motivation for posting on forums (see post 13 ,
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...08#post2088108
... is he doing so to genuinely help and advise those with canine problems and because he really believes e collars are the best option for just about every training issue, or is he promoting e collars as a quick fix for financial gain.
If the former is the case I can't believe anyone with a genuine empathy for animals could fail to ignore the many good reasons put forward in previous discussion as to why the use of e collars is not the best option and why every welfare organisation in the UK and many besides wish to see them banned. If the second reason is Adam's motivation, for me he has no place promoting e collars on forums where the welfare of animals is a prime concern.

By all means look at the methods but at the same time I think we should not hesitate to challenge why someone promotes the use of e collars.
Chris
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10-11-2010, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Hi Brierley I'm sorry but I disagree that challenging people like Adam detracts from the welfare threat posed by e collars.

I would like to know Adam's motivation for posting on forums (see post 13 ,
http://www.dogsey.com/showthread.php...08#post2088108
... is he doing so to genuinely help and advise those with canine problems and because he really believes e collars are the best option for just about every training issue, or is he promoting e collars as a quick fix for financial gain.
If the former is the case I can't believe anyone with a genuine empathy for animals could fail to ignore the many good reasons put forward in previous discussion as to why the use of e collars is not the best option and why every welfare organisation in the UK and many besides wish to see them banned. If the second reason is Adam's motivation, for me he has no place promoting e collars on forums where the welfare of animals is a prime concern.
Look at the positives . When anyone comes on advising e-collars, the very real and very distinct disadvantages and threats to welfare are highlighted as people rightly go onto the threads and point out.

This to me has a far more valuable impact on e-collar use in general than challenging the behaviour/credentials/humanity of one man who is touting for business, as attacking one man only serves to lessen that one man's business opportinities rather than warning people of the very real dangers of picking up a collar and zapping their dog in the mistaken belief the collars are the 'magic pill'.

Once the method is shown to be unacceptable, those trying to make a quick buck will quickly disappear and, who knows, eventually some of those people may start to do more research and broaden their understanding of using methods that are far less harmful - a win situation if only for their own dogs
Meg
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10-11-2010, 12:10 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Look at the positives . When anyone comes on advising e-collars, the very real and very distinct disadvantages and threats to welfare are highlighted as people rightly go onto the threads and point out.
Hi Brierley while I appreciate what you are saying it has also been the case that people have posted with problems (sometimes quite minor) and an e collar advocate has been quick to respond before anyone else. When this happens there is a danger the poster will accept the advice before reading later alternatives. Some e collar advocates may even join sites in order to contact posters directly offering their services.
I would prefer not to see e collar salesmen promoting their goods on forums at all.
Chris
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10-11-2010, 12:11 PM
I've had many run ins with the guy who used to post pictures of his dog being trained with an e-collar over the years (your post link).

He had great ambitions at various times of being a professional dog trainer, dog psychologist, of setting up workshops etc. He never made it (thankfully), but his own rantings around the net put to bed any ambitions he had.

However, maybe being attacked on various forums also played a part. He is though, just one man and for every man that gives up and moves on, another comes along and take their place which is why I firmly believe that it's the methodology itself that needs attacking so that the demand for this type of training is eliminated.
ClaireandDaisy
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10-11-2010, 12:15 PM
Hi Brierly
I understand what you`re saying - and personally I`d love to see the Forum give a clear statement of opposition to coercive training methods (as some do) but `Adam` is a front, not a real trainerl IMO.
There is no dog trainer in Devon by that name, and none I can find with his profile
He has given conflicting accounts of his education etc
he has only just started posting about his dogs althjough he has been a member for some time
he is extremely selective in what threads he posts on, and in those he cherrypicks points to reply to

It is a known method by the e-collar industry to set up personas on forums in order to publicise their product.
So perhaps bringing this person out into the open is not a bad idea?
Chris
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10-11-2010, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by Minihaha View Post
Hi Brierley while I appreciate what you are saying it has also been the case that people have posted with problems (sometimes quite minor) and an e collar advocate has been quick to respond before anyone else. When this happens there is a danger the poster will accept the advice before reading later alternatives. Some e collar advocates may even join sites in order to contact posters directly offering their services.
I would prefer not to see e collar salesmen promoting their goods on forums at all.
Which is why, of course, there is a very good reason for not allowing such posters onto forums that abhor the use of punitive training methods.

While ever they are allowed to post, the dangers of the methods they propose need to be highlighted as the damage, as you point out, may have already started.

There are many calls for a ban on e-collars, yet many of those making the calls allow their promotion around the net and while ever that happens, the situation you describe is a real possibility
Meg
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10-11-2010, 12:39 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
I've had many run ins with the guy who used to post pictures of his dog being trained with an e-collar over the years (your post link).

He had great ambitions at various times of being a professional dog trainer, dog psychologist, of setting up workshops etc. He never made it (thankfully), but his own rantings around the net put to bed any ambitions he had.

However, maybe being attacked on various forums also played a part. He is though, just one man and for every man that gives up and moves on, another comes along and take their place which is why I firmly believe that it's the methodology itself that needs attacking so that the demand for this type of training is eliminated.
Hi Brierley like youself I have been here a long time and I am aware of whom you speak. I am also aware that certain people who opposed the use of e collars and those who sold them were singled out 'for special attention' by someone .
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
Which is why, of course, there is a very good reason for not allowing such posters onto forums that abhor the use of punitive training methods.

While ever they are allowed to post, the dangers of the methods they propose need to be highlighted as the damage, as you point out, may have already started.

There are many calls for a ban on e-collars, yet many of those making the calls allow their promotion around the net and while ever that happens, the situation you describe is a real possibility
....here as you must be aware you are straying into the territory of censorship and that is a whole different debate.

Speaking personally while they are around I will continue to challenge e collar advocates/ salesman about the methods they use and the reasons they choose them.
Adam P
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10-11-2010, 01:25 PM
Hi Ben

I would guess it was mostly fear based, it could be argued that all aggression is fear based, fear of losing food, fear of losing status ect.

So he was basically attacking out of a get them before they get me idea. By stopping the attacks I was able to show him that they weren't going to get him and there was no need to get in first.

Adam
SLB
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10-11-2010, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Adam Palmer View Post
Hi Ben

I would guess it was mostly fear based, it could be argued that all aggression is fear based, fear of losing food, fear of losing status ect.

So he was basically attacking out of a get them before they get me idea. By stopping the attacks I was able to show him that they weren't going to get him and there was no need to get in first.

Adam
You dont even know why the aggresion was? Dont trainers evaluate the dog before training? Dont they assess before choosing a method?
Maybe CAD's opinion about you not being a real trainer, should be taken on by your clients.
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