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Electric shock collars to be banned in England

...has received 57 comments (page 2)
Gnasher
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02-09-2018, 08:18 AM
Fair enough Chris, but i have to beg to differ. Let's just leave it like that.
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Besoeker
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Joined: Oct 2016
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02-09-2018, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by Forgotten View Post
Actually the jolt that you get from an electric fence is not painful! It is a jolt that sort of hits you and makes you jump or startles you. I have been "Bitten" by many electric fences in my time without any harm done, I very much doubt if the "shock" from such a small battery in a collar would be painful, but it would make you jump or startle you.
I suppose you could argue that any electrocution is not painful in the same sense that hitting your thumb with a hammer.

I still abhor the idea of inflicting it on any animal.
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Gnasher
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Posts: 8,727
Female 
 
02-09-2018, 07:19 PM
It is not electrocution ... it is static electricity ... I have had more painful belts from the lift buttons at work than Ben's e collar. Ben is no longer with us, but I shall never ever ever regret using an e collar on him ... once. Or Tai - again just once.
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mjfromga
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Female 
 
17-09-2018, 10:09 AM
The ban won't work anyway. They're too easy to get online and you'll even be able to find them around. Smoking weed is illegal here. Can't find it in stores. People still have TONS of it and smoke it daily. Just an example. People who really want to use them will use them.

Here it is illegal to chain your dog. Does that stop people? No. They simply break the law. The punishment if caught is impounding the dog in an already crowded shelter and if the chain was the only way they could keep their dog, then the dog stays in the shelter, and is often put down. I wonder if the chained dogs would rather die? Basically the law is an epic fail. I think the same goes here.

I've never used a shock collar, but they can have their place. The collars don't kill dogs. They don't even truly hurt them. They're not comfortable but comfort isn't always the best way to handle things. Of course the "positive only" people won't agree with that, but it doesn't make it untrue.

I suppose it makes the naysayers feel better to call it "diabolical" and "torturous" and every bad name they can think of. They're collars. They just aren't that bad. Exaggeration is the reason laws like these ever come into play anyway.

The collars aren't even that prevalent. If its anything like it is here, not that many people even use them. They're expensive and many people have no idea how to use them. The nature of them was simply blown out of proportion. I've seen one shock collar here and TONS of prong collars and choke chains.

PETA calls ALL collars those same exact names. They don't believe any animals should be subjected to such servitude and terror. They act like dogs are people. We wouldn't like it, so don't do it to dogs. Except dogs are not people, but you can't tell a PETA person that.

These same people smash spiders for no reason, eat meat when they can make an excuse for it, feed their dogs vegan diets, and support putting down healthy animals just because being a pet is SO BAD to them.

They are hypocritical cult like weirdos who can't accept another way of thinking beside their own way. The entire world basically dislikes them. They stand alone in a futile effort to save animals from the "torture" of humans.

People who shun the shock collars with such ferocity remind me of PETA. These are people who refuse to consider that some who use these love their pets and that their way is not the only way. These are people who refuse to allow exceptions to rules.

Shelters that keep dogs for 100 years or put them down in 2 days, BSL, backyard breeding, dogs living with kids who tease and bother them all the time, dogs beaten up by idiots etc, should be the real issues that these zealots stand behind. .. And they ban shock collars. Nice.

I guess at least that was easy. Handling real issues tends to be much more difficult.

"The dog welfare organisation said a ban would ensure that pets were trained with "positive methods, free from pain".


Really? Is that how things work? This is absurd. Take away the "cruel" tool that CRUEL people are using and they're just going to switch to positive methods? I wish I were delusional enough to be able to subscribe to such wishful thinking but I have the" misfortune" of living in the real world.
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Lynn
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17-09-2018, 10:46 AM
Never found using positive reinforcement a problem here. Always works never as quick maybe as a dog responds to kindness not fear rather than using a tool that inflicts a shock and fear into an animal.
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mjfromga
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Female 
 
17-09-2018, 04:34 PM
Never said it was a problem. Don't even think it's a problem. My entire argument is simply that just because a method works for one animal doesn't mean it works for them all.

These people who said that this ban will ENSURE that pets are trained positively are living in a very small bubble. That isn't how things work. Must be nice to be that naive as they say ignorance is bliss, but again it isn't how the world works.

Even if the ban worked, which it won't, people who want to be cruel to their dogs will simply find another way. Trust me, cruelty to dogs gets FAR worse than a measly shock collar.

And people who use the tools for a bit of extra help will be robbed of such and their dogs may go out of control or end up in shelters. Where is the good in any of that?

I've seen many videos and whatnot of shock collars being used properly. The dogs are not fearful at all. The shock does not harm them at all. I've also seen a few dogs yelping from the shock.

If I accidentally step on my dogs foot, he yelps, but then he gets up and follows me like nothing happened. Jade would sometimes yelp if I shouted. She yelped when a lamp fell over. She yelped when there was thunder sometimes. She was just scared. I never hit her or used any "tools" on her.

I wonder why people act like all dogs that have had one of these on them are such damaged and harmed pets? There's really nothing to suggest that this is even true and it doesn't seem that way to me.

While I see people here raving about this ban, I literally see zero upside to it. I personally think halti collars look very uncomfortable and cruel, but I don't support a ban of them because they have their place. I just can't stand behind the way of thinking that gets small stuff like collars banned.
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Chris
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Joined: Jun 2006
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Female 
 
17-09-2018, 06:32 PM
I think the point you are missing, Myra, is that the tool was designed for one purpose and one purpose only, to inflict pain/discomfort on a helpless animal. Surely you can see why that should not be available.

You accidentally tread on your dog's foot and he yelps. Do you deliberately do that again - enough times, perhaps, that he gets used to it so realises their is no point in yelping because his owner ignores his pleas?

The myth that has been perpetuated by users and sellers of this cruel piece of kit being the only option is just that, a myth
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mjfromga
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Female 
 
17-09-2018, 06:54 PM
That isn't the purpose of the tool. Even if the tool was originally MADE for that reason, it doesn't mean modern day use of it constitutes such. Just because a dog was BRED for something doesn't mean a person can't have that breed without doing was it was bred for.

These types of statements are the same ones I speak out against. They're the close minded statements of people in a moral bubble.

If the dog yelps when the collar is used, you are supposed to turn it down. If the dog yelps when you step on his foot, you try to be more careful. Some dogs also yelp at the smallest things, which is something else to consider.

I don't think these collars are the only way. I don't think there is EVER only one way. That is my entire point. Your way may be the best way TO YOU but TO THEM, their way is the best way.

I simply think that when used properly by the right people, the collars can benefit dogs. I have never used one on my dogs and I don't like them and would never use them, but we can't expect every dog to have a perfect home or situation and I think we need to respect people that at least are trying.

Positive only training TBH requires a level of patience and competence and time and whatnot that simply isn't in everyone's nature. Others believe that it isn't effective on all dogs because dogs differ in nature. Why not respect that maybe those things could be true?

I think choke chains are awful. I think they're far worse than shock collars. I've used a choke chain before on my last dog. He would simply pull until he coughed and his tongue turned blue, then he would rest for a bit and start again. It wasn't an effective tool at all.
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Chris
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 6,152
Female 
 
17-09-2018, 07:03 PM
I too think choke chains are awful and also prong collars. Simply no need for them

It is way to easy to turn up the dial, yank too hard on tools designed to inflict pain and discomfort.

Also, it should be remembered that if the dog doesn't find the tool painful/very unpleasant it would have not effect whatsoever. The dog has to actively want to avoid the shock, yank etc for it to work. Does that smack of not being painful?
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mjfromga
Dogsey Veteran
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 5,662
Female 
 
18-09-2018, 04:36 AM
It's odd how you act like people put these tools on dogs JUST to inflict pain. The tools are to HELP the owner keep the dog from doing something even worse than feeling a mild stun.

Discipline is unpleasant. I understand that you feel like dogs should not ever be disciplined in an unpleasant way because you're one of those "positive only" people, but I don't agree and not every agrees.

That's the issue that I have. You've closed your mind to any type of dog keeping except your own. You refuse to acknowledge that a well behaved dog can be acquired other ways. Nigredo did therapy and is a well behaved boy. Everyone who meets him adores him. I'm not a positive only type of person at all and never will be. I'm not going to hurt him but I have NO aversion to firm discipline.

I have a mild mannered dog that I raised from a puppy. I'm confident that any dog I can raise from a puppy will be a well behaved dog. I won't give an adult dog a home because I can't be sure I can train it. For people that WILL take this on, I think the tools should be an option. And to me, shocks are better than prongs and chains.

Sometimes a bit of extra help with a stubborn dog I think is okay. Sometimes discomfort or unpleasantness is okay. Injuring a dog isn't okay. This is life in general. Why do people put dogs up on pedestals and act like their lives should be bliss? This isn't how they live in the wild. This isn't how anybody lives, except perhaps those in a bubble.

Tell a person who can only control their dog with a prong collar that the collar "simply isn't necessary". Things just don't work that way. Its easy to chide someone and tell them to train a dog with positive only methods, it's WAY harder to actually do it. Talk is pretty cheap. Pretty cheap indeed.
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