Now there's an idea...... Canine Come Dine!

I met a dog recently whose coat and skin had improved immensely on a raw diet. It can certainly work for some dogs but I don't think there is any one diet that is the best for all individuals and it is when it is pushed for every dog and every owner that I have concerns about it, remembering that an immuno compromised owner may also influence choice of diet.

There isn't even one diet that is always the best for a particular dog as that can vary with age, exercise and health.

A puppy building body has different requirements to a mature dog maintain body, while a sick or geriatric dog may well require a convalescent diet. A working dog can require differing nutrition depending whether it is in active work or off season or depending on the weather.

Imo with feeding, as with behaviour, training, exercise, the type of attention given, games played, and even grooming, the specific requirements of the individual at that point in time, under all the circumstances applying at that time, should be the primary consideration.

Well let's face it, the way some of the contestants behave or cook the dogs and their food would be an improvement, if Kerryowner is anything to go by

Mind you there was someone on there recently who specialised in cooking road kill for herself , so there is a prey model diet for the dogs

Ok, first I DO feed raw but this has been an interesting read…

Whether people feed raw or not, is an individual choice and I don’t think people should ‘push’ either types of feeding on others. I have seen people who feed raw try to push raw food onto others, but I have seen kibble feeders ‘push’ kibble on others and are very negative towards raw feeding.

Now, I love feeding raw and I think it is a great way to feed, and if people ask about raw or for opinions on what to feed, then I will suggest raw… just the same as others suggest whatever brand of commercial food suits there dog. I won’t however criticise their choice, and/or try to push them into choosing raw and give them the ‘guilt trip’. I think some people do that, but it happens both ways.

I think commercial food do work great for some dogs, and they do well on them… but after doing tons of reading before choosing to feed raw, I personally wouldn’t feel comfortable feeding commercial foods. I have read about commercial foods being linked to cancer in dogs. Sam, the dog I had growing up, was fed a commercial diet his whole life… he died of cancer aged 8/9. I will never know what caused his cancer, it could have just been one of those things that unfortunately happened to my boy, but I can’t stop wondering if it was down to his food. Now, with Jake I have little choice in what to feed Jake since he can only eat hypoallergenic dog foods… due to the vast amount of grain in commercial dog foods, grain in which dogs aren’t suited to eat anyway… so for Jake, I decided there was only one option, and that was to feed raw. And, he hasn’t ever looked better than how he does now on a raw diet.

I don’t think how the animals are farmed etc applies just to feeding raw, the meats that go into commercial foods will also be farmed that way… and goodness knows what exact type of meat it is and where it came from! There have been some pretty horrific reports of what meat goes into the kibble. I also think healthy dogs are perfectly capable of dealing with raw meat… there are thousands of dogs who are fed raw meat on a daily basis, and they do just fine with not a single problem. The raw meat certainly doesn’t effect Jake, he is very rarely ill or has diarrhoea, and is never sick. Some people also make a big deal about getting the ‘balance’ right, which I did to begin with… but it’s easy to get the hang of, and we all manage to feed ourselves a balanced diet with no problems so it shouldn’t really be that difficult for our dogs

The point about dogs being our oldest domesticated pet is an interesting point. It is hard to know though, coz who knows when exactly dogs started being fed cooked scraps, and how well they were cooked. Dogs also eat all sorts of disgusting things (poo!) and some dogs would happily eat a rotting carcass if they came across one so I don’t think their ability to handle germs, bacteria etc has been compromised. Again, there is also the proof that thousands of dogs eat a raw diet and can handle the raw meat just fine.

I do think people need to be careful about the bacteria that comes with handling raw meat, but I don’t think it is much different to handling raw meat for ourselves before it gets cooked. Jake is fed outside if it is something he can’t eat straight out of his bowl, so he doesn’t make a mess all over the floors. If he has to eat inside, then I have a specific blanket that gets put down for him eating on.

I do a lot of reading about raw, and it seems that a common problem when people change to raw, is that they don’t give the dogs time to adjust to the new diet. If a dog has spent years eating kibble, then a change to raw food can take some adjusting. Another thing, is apparently it is common for dogs who are new to raw to have increased dandruff, eye goop, slight hair loss, etc, which is meant to be down to a build up of toxins etc being released… I am not sure how much science is behind that one, but it is something I have come across as a theory for that, and the problems usually clear up once that dogs have been on raw for a bit. I think also, it is good to remember that not all dogs suit all meats. Just like how some dogs will do better on certain kibbles, and bad on other kibbles and you need to go through trial and error to see what suits your dog. The same can be applied with raw, not all dogs do well on all meats. Jake is good with all meats, but by god he doesn’t half do some rancid farts with lamb

For some people raw just isn’t practical, they don’t have the space for an extra freezer or kibble is more convenient etc. I couldn’t afford to buy an extra freezer when Jake started raw, and had to buy little and often which really did work out costing much more… now, he has his own freezer and it is so cheap to feed raw now, it has been a godsend!

Ok, I’ve rambled on long enough now I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but I think some interesting points were made and just thought I would give my opinion on those. Basically, I think its a case of each to their own (is that the right saying?? ) and i don't think people should criticise either way... just like people who feed kibble don't like raw feeders to criticise their way of feeding, raw feeders don't like to be made out like we are insane (not saying anyone here has!)

Lozzibear regarding cancer, my sister won't feed raw because she knows of three raw-fed dogs, belonging to different people, who all contracted cancer, but of course we are all influenced by our own personal experiences.

It is my view that most of the time you are just unlucky, with some genetic predisposition within certain breeds that are more prone to specific cancers than others, irrespective of what they are fed.

A lot of dogs are fed commercial diets, a number of dogs get cancer, so statistically there will be an overlap of those two groups, as there will be of the raw fed dogs and those getting cancer.

While raw feeding is getting increasingly publicity, there are still far more dogs fed on commercial diets as, among other reasons, they are more convenient for most people.

Hence the number of dogs fed a commercial diet who get cancer will be higher than the number of raw fed dogs getting cancer, even if the % of dogs on that diet contracting cancer e.g an arbitrary figure of 1/100 or 1%, is the same. So if 1000 dogs are raw fed that would be 10 raw fed dogs but if there were 10,000 dogs in that group that would result in 100 commercial fed dogs getting cancer, which could be misleading.

But I entirely agree with you, neither raw feeders nor commercial feeders, nor home cooking feeders should should be ruthlessly pushing their diet on others via emotional blackmail. I do know of one vet whose clients are getting reluctant to go there, if they are not raw feeding as they are made to feel they are poisoning their dogs by feeding them commercial food.

Although there is of course a difference between criticism and politely debating through exchange of ideas, plus any diet method can be done well or badly.

(Although to add to the terminology confusion there are now commercially-prepared raw diets )

In any case some people use a combination of all three.

Personally I am not convinced about the "de-tox" theory, although I have heard it before. If one switched a dog from one commercial diet to another and saw this effect I doubt anyone would be suggesting that was a de-tox.

So long as a gradual change over is employed, as with any dietary change, to allow the gut flora to adjust, I would consider a drop in condition of whatever type (coat, skin, unwanted weight loss, energy, faecal consistency, etc) to indicate that that diet suited the dog less well than the previous diet.

I do agree that there are many things that could be possible causes of cancer, some could be genetic etc. I just remember this article saying there was a specific link to kibble and cancer. I can't remember exactly what it was that the link was, but i will see if i can dig it out.

I agree about the numbers of kibble vs raw fed dogs, being difficult to compare due to the difference in number. The cause of the cancer wouldn't be able to be proven anyway so that would always be debated even if the numbers were equal.

I usually hear of vets who are the other way, and are against kibble. Luckily the vet my dog goes to isn't too bothered either way but does suggest to feed kibble and raw... she didn't get on at me though when i decided to just feed raw.

Yep, i definitely agree with that... i like a good healthy (sensible ) debate

I'm not sure about it either, but i do think it is an interesting one. I wouldn't expect a dog switching from one kibble to another as producing those results though, coz they are so similar... whereas raw is totally different... unless maybe the kibble was going from utter rubbish to a good quality kibble (if the theory is right).

But with raw it is often suggested to change diets cold turkey (excuse the pun )... so the change is sudden. Some people also try new meats a bit too soon before the dog is ready.

Do you recall what type of cancer was associated with the kibble and which kibble and what the controls were in terms of dogs selected and diets provided?

I would be interested to see the research if you have the link. If the dogs were related to each other, or of a particular breed, or if the sample size was too small those factors could all affect the results, as can other variables.

That surprised me as I have always understood any dietary changes should be made gradually, say ~5-7 days for a complete change over, with anything new being initially introduced a little at a time

Do you know what the rationale is behind that approach?

Or is it just that the more militant proponents don't think dogs should be on anything other than raw for a second longer?

I have never yet heard a vet being against kibble, they always recommend kibble, in fact the head vet in the practice we used to go to was not very approving at all when I said I was changing to raw

I hadnt heard that either about changing diets cold turkey to raw. The raw diet forum I joined said to do a slow change over.

I think it's disgraceful that some rescues I've seen make it a policy that you have to feed a dog you adopt from them a raw diet. Surely a good home is what is needed not what diet the dog is on unless it's for medical reasons?
Becky

there are plenty of vets against kibble who do not recommend it ie

Mark Elliott
Richard Allport
Christopher Day
Nick Thompson

To name but a few, there are loads more out there.