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Firstlight
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Location: western NY, usa
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03-02-2013, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by egroeg View Post
Oh come on! You would have to be as thick as two short planks (stupid) to believe those videos were a quick fix to emergency stopping a dog.

How long and how boring would the video be if she began with a green dog? If anything, for me, she went on for long enough to get the point across.


Egroeg, may I ask how many people you have instructed in training their own dogs?

Apparently my area has lots more short planks than does yours; I could recount examples of people misinterpreting what they have seen/heard/read that would give you nightmares for a month. Brierley kindly gave such an example in a previous post.

And I would not (unkindly) assume that someone who makes such a mistake is stupid, there are many reasons for misinterpretation.
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Firstlight
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03-02-2013, 10:35 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
No, not at all. for example, in the example I gave, I rewarded the instant down with a retrieve as that was his favourite reward.

I asked my dog for a down in that case as down came very naturally to him and was a position he often opted to take when trying out actions that resulted in reward. In other words, it didn't really need much training as it was his default position. My friend's Boxer on the other hand would have taken forever to train a 'down' regardless of distraction as he wasn't particularly keen on 'downing', his default was a stand so when stopping him mid track, she would use the 'stand' command and he'd stop mid run in a stand position.

Heavens, it so much easier to explain verbally than in writing, but I know what I mean


I was after the why you think the down "came very naturally to him", nature or nurture?
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Firstlight
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04-02-2013, 12:27 AM
OK, listen up y'all. I have had a lot of time to devote to this forum because of a health issue that required confinement to quarters. The confinement has been lifted, and I now must return to real life activities like cleaning my house before it is quarantined as a health hazard, closing my books and preparing my income tax (Ugh!), and oh, torturing my dog and teaching others how to torture theirs.

This will be my last post to this thread (now don't anyone fall down and hurt themselves while jumping for joy), except for any needed to reply to questions from Brierley and Wys in regard to my post #340. If anyone indicates they have missed this post, I would appreciate it if someone would direct them to it, to avoid any misunderstanding of the reason for my absence.

I want you all to know that I have enjoyed my experience on this forum immensely, and I greatly appreciate you all using your precious time to participate. I have tried hard to respond to all posts in a respectful and polite manner; please know that any failure to meet this goal has been purely unintentional.

Peace to all,
Firstlight
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Baxter8
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04-02-2013, 07:21 AM
What an interesting and heated discussion. Can I say at the outset that I have never used punishment on my dog and never intend to do so. And for the record I'm glad e-collars are illegal in the UK.

My dog is a staffie boxer X. I rescued him one year ago and I estimate he's around two years old. I am going to use the term wilful because that's how I've always viewed him. In obedience training he learnt all the terms and when in the mood will obey me - invariably he is not in the mood. Even if in the same room and I call him and he's looking out the window watching traffic he will ignore me. If I have a treat he will fix himself by my side, if I don't have a treat I can forget it.

Now all of this is ok(ish) I've learned to live with it. However when we're out and about it's a different matter. He has an extremely high prey drive and will chase anything (except humans, thankfully), and nothing I do will stop him. He enters a field and scans the horizon for something to chase. My job has been to scan the horizon before he does and keep him on a leash until I know it's ok. Like him, I am not perfect and he has got into a field of livestock and whilst not aggressive to them, he sees it as a big game to chase young cattle or horses into a corner and keep them there and I have to admit at times I have wished I could use an e-collar. Interestingly he doesn't chase sheep because twice he has charged into their field only to run into an electric fence.

Just my tuppence worth.

Sandy
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promarc
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04-02-2013, 08:11 AM
and my question still goes unanswered, and also all the facts i presented ignored, so to me and everyone reading this, you argue to what you believe is right and challenge peoples opinions you think are not right in your opinion but when facts are presented you clearly avoid. many have tried and failed on here your another that has tried but failed miserablly, lets hope karma see's it right to bite you back in the backside.
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Chris
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04-02-2013, 08:37 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
I'm down with that Brierly, verbal is also much faster than writing!

Why do suppose your dog used down as his his go-to response when trying to learn a new behavior?
It was natural for him - his 'default' position. It was also, more often than not, the position he adopted when I had confused him, when he was learning, when he was worried and when he was trying to tell me something. He adopted it from at least 6 weeks old (when I got him) so it's doubtful it had anything to do with anticipation (although anticipation may have been subsequently and often inadvertently rewarded)
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Chris
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04-02-2013, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
I was after the why you think the down "came very naturally to him", nature or nurture?
Nature often reinforced through nurture
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Firstlight
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04-02-2013, 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Baxter8 View Post
What an interesting and heated discussion. Can I say at the outset that I have never used punishment on my dog and never intend to do so. And for the record I'm glad e-collars are illegal in the UK.

My dog is a staffie boxer X. I rescued him one year ago and I estimate he's around two years old. I am going to use the term wilful because that's how I've always viewed him. In obedience training he learnt all the terms and when in the mood will obey me - invariably he is not in the mood. Even if in the same room and I call him and he's looking out the window watching traffic he will ignore me. If I have a treat he will fix himself by my side, if I don't have a treat I can forget it.

Now all of this is ok(ish) I've learned to live with it. However when we're out and about it's a different matter. He has an extremely high prey drive and will chase anything (except humans, thankfully), and nothing I do will stop him. He enters a field and scans the horizon for something to chase. My job has been to scan the horizon before he does and keep him on a leash until I know it's ok. Like him, I am not perfect and he has got into a field of livestock and whilst not aggressive to them, he sees it as a big game to chase young cattle or horses into a corner and keep them there and I have to admit at times I have wished I could use an e-collar. Interestingly he doesn't chase sheep because twice he has charged into their field only to run into an electric fence.

Just my tuppence worth.

Sandy

Hello Sandy,
This is a good example of a situation where, IME, proper application of the collar would indeed be useful. You have a dog with a strong drive to chase critters. That drive could potentially have a really nasty result, so obviously it needs to be curbed. You have seen that electricity did indeed stop it, via punishment (i.e., he read the contact with the fence as meaning stop!, and he did, but, he had no control over the correction. Equally harmful in your situation is the fact that every time he is successful at engaging in the chase behavior, he is getting (self) rewarded for both chasing, and for ignoring any commands you may have given in an attempt to stop it.

Now in your case, this "bolt from the blue" was unnecessarily harsh, but apparently didn't create a problem. I am sure we can see that it could have done so if your dog had been one of the herding breeds which you wanted to train up for that purpose, because he very well could have associated the shock with the sheep; his other notion could have been to associate it with the spot he was on when it happened, which would have been a real problem if he got thru the fence and hit the fence when he tried to return to you.

My use of the collar (which I have pretty thoroughly explained) would have given the dog control over the correction, i.e., the chance to avoid it, or not, by choosing to responding quickly to a learned command, or not. If he chose "not" he would have interpreted the shock as a result of that bad choice, i.e., as a result of his behavior. The shock in a properly collar conditioned dog, does not mean stop, but rather do what I have trained you to do, right now.

In your situation, I would contact one of the folks on this thread who have had great success with reward training and hook up with a good trainer to help you solve this problem.
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Firstlight
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04-02-2013, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by Brierley View Post
It was natural for him - his 'default' position. It was also, more often than not, the position he adopted when I had confused him, when he was learning, when he was worried and when he was trying to tell me something. He adopted it from at least 6 weeks old (when I got him) so it's doubtful it had anything to do with anticipation (although anticipation may have been subsequently and often inadvertently rewarded)
Thanks Brierley, I wondered if his response to down was driven by something innate to BCs.
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Baxter8
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04-02-2013, 06:04 PM
Hi thanks for your response - I know you keep trying to get off this forum!

I would be interested (like you I suspect) to know how reward training could solve this situation because I don't think there is such a solution. Firstly he is extremely wilful, secondly as he's an adolescent rescue dog I've been denied that precious training window of opportunity when he was young AND thirdly if that wasn't enough, he has an extremely strong prey drive. The only way I can deal with the situation is, as I am currently - keeping him on a lead if there is the slightest chance there's livestock around. As spring approaches that might be all the time.

Anybody?

Sandy


Originally Posted by Firstlight View Post
Hello Sandy,
This is a good example of a situation where, IME, proper application of the collar would indeed be useful. You have a dog with a strong drive to chase critters. That drive could potentially have a really nasty result, so obviously it needs to be curbed. You have seen that electricity did indeed stop it, via punishment (i.e., he read the contact with the fence as meaning stop!, and he did, but, he had no control over the correction. Equally harmful in your situation is the fact that every time he is successful at engaging in the chase behavior, he is getting (self) rewarded for both chasing, and for ignoring any commands you may have given in an attempt to stop it.

Now in your case, this "bolt from the blue" was unnecessarily harsh, but apparently didn't create a problem. I am sure we can see that it could have done so if your dog had been one of the herding breeds which you wanted to train up for that purpose, because he very well could have associated the shock with the sheep; his other notion could have been to associate it with the spot he was on when it happened, which would have been a real problem if he got thru the fence and hit the fence when he tried to return to you.

My use of the collar (which I have pretty thoroughly explained) would have given the dog control over the correction, i.e., the chance to avoid it, or not, by choosing to responding quickly to a learned command, or not. If he chose "not" he would have interpreted the shock as a result of that bad choice, i.e., as a result of his behavior. The shock in a properly collar conditioned dog, does not mean stop, but rather do what I have trained you to do, right now.

In your situation, I would contact one of the folks on this thread who have had great success with reward training and hook up with a good trainer to help you solve this problem.
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