Quick Guide.

Think of the Symbols

+ positive

- Negative

Think of Positive of Adding Somethjing & Negative as taking Something away

Now think of the two reinforcement, Reward & Punishment!

Ok still With Me?

+ Reward, Adding something nice to reward behaviour, Ie food reward, Play Reward or simply a pat!!!!

- reward, Taking away discomfort to reward the behaviour, ie releasing the collar

+ punishment, ie Adding something to your training to punish, a smack, tighten on the collar, zap on the remote

- punishment, taking the nice things away, no reward

Indeed. That is what I meant and I would in fact categorise this as positive punishment.

Interesting. I would have to say yes. So we have positive punishment coupled with positive reward (getting to move forward when they "behave"). Although the person is not really causing the punishment as such. Simply holding the lead. However on the whole I would say your point stands. Now if the positive reward based trainer switched to a harness to stop discomfort on the dog then that would change it back to being pure negative punishment. Yes?


However as I have said above the pain due to pulling on the lead is a side effect rather than the aim of the training. The training should work just as well if a harness was substituted for the collar eliminating the pain from pulling. It would be interesting to see how different the speed of training would be though.



You got me. That does appear inconsistent doesn't it. Personally I would say it was punishment if the handler or dog thought of it as punishment. When I slap Jet on the rump it's to get his attention. It's less hard than a slap on the arm and he only looks round lazily as if to say "what?". In fact I did it to him now and he play bowed and is now pestering me to play. I guess it's part of our training. It's a bit coarse though and I will try to use it less.

If it's just for attention and if the dog doesn't mind then I'd say it can't be classed as positive punishment. Sometimes a tap for attention is just that! However you have to be very careful when using "violence" in training. Your dog ignores a tap so it changes to a push, that works for a while then he ignores that and you change to a slap. Pretty soon while you have a tough as nails dog you are also beating seven shades out of it. Not conducive to a good relationship.

If you have 10 eyewitnesses to an event then you will get 10 different stories. None of which will be exactly accurate. We are subjective creatures. It's almost impossible for us to see the world objectively. Then when you add in animal and human emotions which are even more subjective you are always going to have a heated debate.

Personally I don't really think much of what CM does is "awful" or cruel. However I think he does use techniques that are outdated in every other field except dog training. They are even outdated in canine psychology I believe. (dog trainings scientific big brother). Most of what he does is unneccesarry and crass. Basically he seems like the uneducated teacher who throws his weight around yelling while some quiet teacher no one notices goes on to get fantastic results.

I'm not sure if we can really blame CM for his sensationalist TV show. It's what everyone seems to want.

That sounds reasonable to me.

So in your opinion....(And I'm not grilling you - feel free to ignore my questions if my line of reasoning is boring you )

1. If a dog doesn't like it when you tell him 'no' and you continue to use it regardless because it works then this would be positive punishment? Our trainer once mentioned training discs to us. As I understand it it's like a 'clicker' but it is used as a negative marker. She said that they can work with some dogs but others (such as one of her rescues) were quite frightened by them. Are training discs a form of positive punishment? Always? Only if the dog doesn't like them? Only if you use them to frighten the dog into doing what you want?

2. If a dog is 'brought into line' by a stern voice (so for example, the dog is doing something you don't like - barking say. You issue a command that the dog knows which is ignored. So you use a stern voice and say "stop that now!". Not necessarily shouting - just 'I mean business'. The dog stops immediately because he knows the stern voice means you expect him to do as he's told. He really doesn't want to...but knows he has to. This would be positive punishment? When people say things like "When I tell my dogs to do something I expect them to obey - if they don't I just use a certain tone and they know i mean business", they're probably using positive punishment?

3. Here's an interesting one. We're looking to buy a field for our dogs. Some that we've looked at have secure sheep fencing (very important for beagles) but also an electric wire running along the top. I've commented that we'd need to remove that and most people respond by saying "Leave it - if the dog does try to jump the fence he'll get a harmless jolt and won't try it again.". Is that positive punishment if you haven't actually put the electric fence there to contain the dog...you've just neglected to remove it? And if you think it is, then to what degree could you describe 'failure to protect the dog from it's environment' as positive punishment? Letting a puppy pester an older dog because you know she'll eventually tell it off? (You often hear dog owners saying - "that's OK - he needs to learn" when someone appologises for their dog telling off the pup). Is it healthy to let the dog learn about what's good AND bad from it's environment or is the owner using positive punishment if they don't ensure the dog only has good experiences?

4. Here's a very common one that we've used. As youngsters, when our dogs ran off and didn't respond to commands or pay attention to where we were we'd often hide from them. They'd really be quite frantic for a moment when they realised we were gone. But it did make them more careful to pay attention to us in future. Would you class that as us simply withrdawing something they like (our presence) or is it positive punishment? The aim was to frighten the dog and make it more carefull to pay attention to where we are in future.

5. What about a shock collar. If the handler uses it purely to get attention or as a negative marker and the dog is very comfortable with it does it then cease to become a form of positive punishment?

Just one more thought....

Something like putting a dog out of the room or withdrawing your attention isn't positive punishment. Right?

But....

If you threaten to put the dog out of the room or withdraw attention if he doesn't toe the line (and he understands what you mean) then presumably that IS positive punishment. You're adding the threat of something the dog doesn't like in order to get him to do what you want?

Punishment is just simply something that makes the behaviour less likely to happen
If your dog responds to it then it is punishment - if it happens in the environment it is punishment
To quote Ian Dunbar
Punishment dosent have to be harsh to be effective - so why should it be??

Training disks to some dogs can just be trained like an anti clicker - ie what you did makes the treats go away
It is punishment - it works but it is not nasys
But most people use it as a loud noise to startle the dog - they dont actually train it they just chuck it down to get a reaction - that is also punishemnt - but, especially for a noise sensitive dog, it is harsh, can scare the dog and can make them timid
I use a non reward noise - at the moment it is a gentle 'no' but I am thinking of changing it to the words 'try again' as that is more the mindset I want to be in when I am using it
It is more a communication with the dog that it is heading in the wrong direction - like if Ben is ro excited when I ask him to do something but he dosent think and just does any old trick, I just tell him 'no' and put the treat away - he then calms down and thinks
It is not a punishment - it is just a communication

Its hard to get your head around im sure

Good trainers tend to Use Positive Praise & Negative Punishment

Bad trainers tend to use Negative Praise & Positive punishment.


Positvie isnt always good & Negative isnt always bad, but this is getting every techinical now & most people find this hard to get your head around.

Negative Punishment although not Physically Cruel unlike Positive punishment can be, should also be used with Care or can shatter your dogs confidence.

That makes good sense.

So, say for example someone wants to make use of a negative marker when the dog is working at a distance - perhaps even out of earshot. If the dog is comfy and relaxed about a low stimulus electric collar then presumably that would be no different to THAT dog than your gentle 'no' to YOUR dog? Not a punishment - just communication?

And presumably the same goes for a tap, poke, nudge, noise - anything that the dog is comfortable with and that the handler is using purely for communication. A way of communicating with a dog that is heading in the wrong direction?

Myshflyn - no it's fine. As long as you're clear about what you mean (which you have been) then it's quite straight forward. I am familiar with these terms from clicker training - I just don't personally find it useful to think this way. But my questioning is an attempt to clarify peoples interpretation of various scenarios rather than any confusion about your definitions!

OK, but assume you have a dog that is sent to the kitchen when he doesn't behave. You say you class this as negative punishment - right?

Lets just say you've taught a 'kitchen' command and the dog knows he must go there if he's naughty. Still negative punishment - right?

Now I'm sure many of us know of dogs (or perhaps even have dogs) that will look very sorry for themselves and will immediately behave if their owners say "Do you want to go to the kitchen?" - in a quiet, even playful voice. THAT would be positive punishment according to your definition - right?

I'll go through the rest later as it is interesting. But for the minute I'll just do this one off the top of my head.
I've heard of training discs too. I doubt they would work on Jet. When I first got him what with his lead poo bags etc I tended to drop my keys just outside the door as we went out for a walk. Now whenever I drop my keys he comes running expecting there to be a walk...

Another thing we do is I gave Jet ice cubes when he was a puppy and teething. He loves them. So much so that he will run through the house if you take the ice tray out of the freezer. Now it's an enclosed ice holder and the way to get the ice out is to bang it on the table. It makes a god awful noise and I often jump out of my skin (much to my husband's amusement). However Jet will just come running.

Dogs can be scared of loud noises. It seems only fair to acclimatise them to them when young if possible.

Scarter
What exactly are you meaning by communication?? I would say physical contact would usualy be to get the dogs attention - I prefer not to use that as what happens when the dog ignores a wee pat, how long before it is a smack??
Or I suppose if you have taught a dog a down by pushing it down then you could push it down a little if it wasnt listning to you
But personaly I would prefer to address why the dog wasnt listning

By non reward I am meaning when the dog is focused on me and trying to do its job, say I am teaching the weave, he knows pretty much what to do but say 5% of the time he enters the weave on the wrong side, all I do is say 'no' - or 'try again' and dont reward him - he has to try and figure out what he has to do different to get the reward

If he does it wrong again then I figure it isnt as clear to him what I want him to do so I go back and make it easier

I dont see how a shock collar or physical contact could do that - also if my dogs are out of earshot then they will be well out of range for the remote - dogs have fantastic hearing

All that follows is purely my opinion, blah, blah, blah Hmmm. Interesting. I guess it would depend on what was going on in the dog's head specifically. If he associated it with lack of treats it would be negative punishment but if he associated it with punishment or actually really didn't like the noise it would probably be positive punishment. Personally I think a lot of the noises trainers use are just to get attention and not positive/negative reward/punishment loaded at all. In my opinion of course. Well if a dog is scared of them it is a positive punishment. Personally I wouldn't think about it any differently than hitting the dog and it being scared. It may be more socially acceptable but if the outcome is the same does it really matter how it is obtained?

To be honest I've never seen the point of training discs. We can make a huge variety of sounds as humans. I use a whistle sometimes because it carries further than my voice. Noise is just noise after all.
My personal view has and always been that it is not what you do it is how it is perceived and the intent under which you carry it out that is important. I'll go back to the martial arts example (again ). As an instructor I would have no problem yelling at the top of my lungs and giving pressups to some student who could "take it" (and we'd go down the pub and laugh about it afterwards). However other people you need to encourage gently and build up confidence they'd turn into a wreck if you shouted at them. It didn't mean they could never get shouted at. They just weren't there yet. Different strokes work for different folks. Not necessarily. Basically the same as above. If only the stern command works then why don't you use that all the time? It seems a waste to use a command your dog isn't responding to (mind I do have a biddable breed ) Another tricky one. I think it's more of a reminder. The problem about categorisation is that the world just doesn't fit in nicely. If my dog won't do something that I know he can do I will firmly but gently get him to comply. When I can get anywhere near him he is now perfectly behaved And no. He doesn't cower. He just does it. Personally I'd probably leave it. However I would (yes I know I'm a bit mad) test it first to see how bad it was. If you are going to do this use the back of your hand - otherwise your muscles can contract and it's difficult to let go. Most electric fences aren't continuously charged mind. They just send an intermittent jolt through. It usually isn't too bad. But as I say I'd probably check.

In this case I think you could even argue that it's a safety measure if you aren't actually going to encourage your dog to attempt to scale the fence to "learn it" that it would hurt. One of the best things that ever happened to my dog was him getting told off by an older dog. She pinned him and growled right in his face. After that he was much better behaved. To be honest it was probably my fault for not teaching my pup how to approach dogs, but hey he's my first. Failure to protect a dog from the terminal environment we create is I feel unforgivable (ie traffic) everything else - well what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. We used to tell people at Jitsu to man the fu*k up (off the mat, no swearing on the mat). I now tell Jet to dog the fu*k up
The owner is there to protect the dog. I will protect my dog from attacks. However I expect him to be able to cope with minor altercations himself. I helped more when he was a puppy and now he's older I expect him to manage more situations by himself. Incedently what I expect him to do in minor altercations is what I would do - walk away. As he did yesterday in fact. That's a classic negative punishment. Glad it worked for you. My little sod is so confident and always has been that he doesn't worry when I'm out of sight. It's great in some ways but god do we have to work on his recall. Ah shock collars. Generally I think they should be banned as most people are numptys. Also have you ever had an electric shock? I had one in the dark when I was 9. I still remember it, I was terrified. I didn't know what had happened or what was going on. The front of the light switch had fallen off and every time I tried to turn it on I shocked myself.

There is something wholly unnatural about electric shocks. Electricity is wholly man made and I don't think it's fair to use it routinely on a dog. Certainly I wouldn't do it without trying it on myself first.

Aditionally I believe there was a study done on shock collars that found that unless your timing is perfect you created very confused scared dogs and even if it was the dogs were fairly scared. I don't know where it is now. I think they had even used a sensible number of dogs (the number of studies I have read through to find it was all based on 5 dogs)

I have used a spray collar. Jet gets very focussed sometimes and a spray collar snaps him out of it. I only really keep it for emergencies and haven't actually used it recently. It doesn't bother him but it does make him jump. When I pour him water outside he always gets his nose under it and reacts exactly the same way. It functions intermittently and you can only use it about 5 times per outing but it has been good for getting the idea through that yes, even when he's far away he's meant to follow commands. I get the feeling he really didn't understand this before!

Oh and yes, I did try it on myself before I used it on my dog.

Additionally I don't agree with training a dog using a spray collar. That's unfair. Only when a dog really knows what you are asking should you distract it. Interestingly I know a lot of positive trainers who throw tennis balls at the dogs to distract them when they have gone AWOL. The dog's generally stop and play with the ball. The spray collar is much the same thing, however my aim is lousy.