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Borderdawn
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23-04-2008, 08:03 AM
This has been covered on another thread I advertise my dog so the GP have a choice of a health tested dog or one from round the corner. I look on it as a way to promote healthier breeding.
Yes I expect you do.

Yet you advocate certain breeder friends about their quality breeding. Also you say how bad the situation is but don't do anything about it in 'your breed'!
Did I? who? You are out of line here dear, if you thought anything of the breed you would be doing something about it too!! Have you contributed animals for the DCM research? Have you had extensive "CVI" exams done on your Dogs? Have they been neck scored? Have they been tested for PHPV? Hypothyroidism? Well looky here kiddo, mine were and I never bred from them either! Its called wanting to help and not just looking at the dog, but into the breed.! Practice what you preach!

Yes they do and I wouldn't touch certain lines with a barge pole but my dogs have fantastic temperament. Check out the thread about breeding from aggressive dogs it happens in all breeds.
No, really? you do surprise me!

Yes I will be going to WELKS you see I have been watching the pups with tails because I go to the dobe shows not just sit at home speculating. How many times have you been since the undocked pups came out to be able to make your judgement?
This year you mean? Well, lets see, Manchester I watched them, and apart from last weekend there will only of been "breed" shows, so where is anyone looking? lets give it a while eh? like at least one showing season before you claim to be watching the hundreds!!

So do you agree that you aren't an expert, you have simply been in contact with people who have dobes and can read the breed standard which as everyone knows is always open to personal interpretation?And are you saying that the majority of dobes are all built incorrectly?
Oh dear, here we go again!! Do you not see what Im saying? Ill say it one more time. If you are completely unable to understand "appears to be a continuation of the spine without material drop" and "raised only slightly when moving" then Im afraid Im going to struggle, I found it easy to muster the necessary understanding of such simple wording, but anyway, it means if the Dogs tailset was correct, i.e. NOT high set and didnt stick straight up, then the animal will carry it correctly, as laid down in the standard. Tailsets straight off the dogs back will not result in tails curled over dogs backs. Noboby is saying all the dogs are incorrect, I am saying many tailsets are incorrect!

Aactually Dawn what I did say was I haven't even bred my own litter yet,I waited for the right bitch to come along that is of fantastic conformation, type, head and temperament and have at least 2 years before a litter is even thought of. How many litters do I have to churn out willy nilly to become a 'breeder' in your opinion. And you know full well as I have posted before that I have turned down more work than have accepted for Khan, because I am very particular about what he goes to. You've been on my website check out the breeding page for my ethics and conditions. At least I am trying to do something for the breed that I love not just rip it to pieces.
Erm, whats this then?
Ethical and selective breeders of quality dobermanns. As I said, practice what you preach!


No I don't know him but it goes back to what I was saying about my friends dog one judge wanted the tail up the other in the stakes class wanted it left alone.
Thats a shame, very influential Dobe people and if you "cared" as you imply I dont, you would know him and his wife are responsible for doing the most in this country for rescue Dobermanns, literally thousands they have helped, devoted their lives to it. See, I used to help in that way too Karen, fetching, carrying, home visiting, fund raising, "helping the breed" isnt just about breeding more that look nice!

Dont think theres much more to say is there?
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Dobermonkey
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23-04-2008, 09:43 AM
Thread highjack! Borderdawn, on the subject of DCM what puzzles me is the free testing starts at about 5/6 am I right? If the disease is a 'creeper' ie most dogs dont show clinical signs untils its too late, wouldnt it be sensible for trial/comparison purposes to start the tests a lot younger? I live in dread of my little man getting it (or anything for that matter) and am naturally willing to fork out for any testing rather than wait and possibly be to late to help at all. Wobblers naturally is another dread, what is the neck scoring/CVI testing you mentioned? Ive heard of the PHPV and the tgaa testing before
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mcgregorkh
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23-04-2008, 11:18 AM
Obviously not Dawn because you know it all!! And the fact that I am not churning out litter after litter and accepting just any old bitch for Khan shows that I am ethical and selective.

What is your problem with me? You jump on my posts at all times.

As for the DCM they have to be 5 years old to volunteer. How many dobermanns do you know that have been neck scored? Yes Khan has been PHPV tested or I wouldn't have bred from him. The thyroid test has only been made known to me recently and isn't obligatory (so much as vWD, hips and PHPV) but yes I will be having him done.

Don't go round bullying and showing off and patronising me with dear and kiddo. Like I said before go shoot your mouth off to the people who aren't making an effort, but don't suppose you will because they know far more than me and will shoot you down in flames. Introduce yourself to me at the next show you're at and I can introduce you to people and you can tell them what you think.

There are open shows every week not just champ shows where dobes are shown, but of course someone of your knowledge and 'high stature' in the breed wouldn't deign to lower themselves to go to an open show. Ooh wasn't Crufts after Manchester? I think so cos I'm sure that my dog was there!

The thing is Dawn you seem to have taken a dislike to me and being aggressive, bullying and sarcastic just makes you look stupid and nasty. Like someone said in a PM, perhaps you are just jealous cos I have 2 cracking dobes and am breeding responsibly something you haven't been able to do? For whatever reason there is no need for it and I think it should stop here and now. Anyone would think that I am responsible for every bad dog in the ring the way you carry on.
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mcgregorkh
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23-04-2008, 11:32 AM
This year you mean? Well, lets see, Manchester I watched them, and apart from last weekend there will only of been "breed" shows, so where is anyone looking? lets give it a while eh? like at least one showing season before you claim to be watching the hundreds!!
And where did I claim to be watching hundreds! There aren't hundreds in the ring yet only a few. But there were many young pups at Welsh Dobe last week, like Krystal there for socialisation. But of course I am making all this up, people aren't discussing tails it is all in my imagination! And every dog who doesn't hold it's tail straight out has a bad tail set mmm guess that is just about every pup I saw with a bad tail set and most of the champions whose pics have been put up on this thread have been incorrectly bred according to the gospel of St Dawn that is
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Borderdawn
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23-04-2008, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by mcgregorkh View Post
Obviously not Dawn because you know it all!! And the fact that I am not churning out litter after litter and accepting just any old bitch for Khan shows that I am ethical and selective.

What is your problem with me? You jump on my posts at all times.

As for the DCM they have to be 5 years old to volunteer. How many dobermanns do you know that have been neck scored? Yes Khan has been PHPV tested or I wouldn't have bred from him. The thyroid test has only been made known to me recently and isn't obligatory (so much as vWD, hips and PHPV) but yes I will be having him done.

Don't go round bullying and showing off and patronising me with dear and kiddo. Like I said before go shoot your mouth off to the people who aren't making an effort, but don't suppose you will because they know far more than me and will shoot you down in flames. Introduce yourself to me at the next show you're at and I can introduce you to people and you can tell them what you think.

There are open shows every week not just champ shows where dobes are shown, but of course someone of your knowledge and 'high stature' in the breed wouldn't deign to lower themselves to go to an open show. Ooh wasn't Crufts after Manchester? I think so cos I'm sure that my dog was there!

The thing is Dawn you seem to have taken a dislike to me and being aggressive, bullying and sarcastic just makes you look stupid and nasty. Like someone said in a PM, perhaps you are just jealous cos I have 2 cracking dobes and am breeding responsibly something you haven't been able to do? For whatever reason there is no need for it and I think it should stop here and now. Anyone would think that I am responsible for every bad dog in the ring the way you carry on.
Dont be so bloody ridiculous!
Did you say hypothyroidism has only be made known to you recently? Oh please, do you read anything at all on Dobes? I know several Dobes who have been neck scored, it was all the rage a while ago, but then it switched to VWD, of course there was the "grey" area with that too, but now with DNA testing improvements are being made.

Whats all this volunteering? Dogs can be tested for DCM at 12mths, and its recommended by the canine cardiac specialists that its done every 12mths thereafter, having personal experience of this, I wouldnt wait for "volunteering" Id have it done beforehand, Im sure you know several of the top kennels do this annually.

Regards Crufts after Manchester, of course it was, how many Dobes were there with tails? I saw none, but then I was serving my breed (Border Terrier) all day on that day and the previous day on Discover Dogs, I didnt have time to watch any judging. I did however see you in the ring, I think you came 3rd? you were in the same class my friend was in.

Im quite amused by your words, they do entertain me We could continue all day if you wish, I dont have any problems with that. As for your pm's great! I still have the ones you sent me in the first place!! when I told you of advertising your dog at stud on here was against the rules, and many of those breeders who you think are so friendly, were not so pleasant when they saw it!!

If you want to continue feel free to pm me.

Sorry Karen, meant to add. I dont have any problem with you at all, I am just very upset at some of the things that go on in the Dog world, and particularly the Dobe world, because I care about them, I hate seeing what they are becoming.
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Borderdawn
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23-04-2008, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Dobermonkey View Post
Thread highjack! Borderdawn, on the subject of DCM what puzzles me is the free testing starts at about 5/6 am I right? If the disease is a 'creeper' ie most dogs dont show clinical signs untils its too late, wouldnt it be sensible for trial/comparison purposes to start the tests a lot younger? I live in dread of my little man getting it (or anything for that matter) and am naturally willing to fork out for any testing rather than wait and possibly be to late to help at all. Wobblers naturally is another dread, what is the neck scoring/CVI testing you mentioned? Ive heard of the PHPV and the tgaa testing before
Hi Dobermaonkey.
No testing doesnt start at 5 or 6, thats the voluntary screening that is free, run to get more info. Canine cardiac specialists will tell you from 12mths, and annually therafter. It isnt a "creeping" disease either, many Dobes can live a long time post diagnosis, in fact my friends Dobe died the night before last, i think its been a year or so since she was diagnosed. On the other hand there have been several (inc champs) that have been perfectly ok with no signs and just dropped down dead. My own Dobe was perfectly healthy, diagnosed at 5yrs with a heart murmur and was dead inside 6 months. Its an awful thing, but thankfully Carol Smith and co have organised this screening, which is great, its sad though that not that many have taken advantage of it, they still need dogs which shouldnt be a problem with such a numerically strong breed, but sadly it is.

Wobblers is awful too. That is a degenerative disease, I have seen several with this and owned one too. Fortunately he was ok untill the end and required no surgery. Surgery is usually successfull and in recent years the prognosis is much better. Neck scoring is still available, but like many things, its become rare now to have it done, each vertibrae is scored. The disease can also be bought on by trauma.

Dont worry about your fellow, Im sure he will be fine.
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Jackie
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23-04-2008, 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Hi Dobermaonkey.
No testing doesnt start at 5 or 6, thats the voluntary screening that is free, run to get more info. Canine cardiac specialists will tell you from 12mths, and annually therafter. It isnt a "creeping" disease either, many Dobes can live a long time post diagnosis, in fact my friends Dobe died the night before last, i think its been a year or so since she was diagnosed. On the other hand there have been several (inc champs) that have been perfectly ok with no signs and just dropped down dead. My own Dobe was perfectly healthy, diagnosed at 5yrs with a heart murmur and was dead inside 6 months. Its an awful thing, but thankfully Carol Smith and co have organised this screening, which is great, its sad though that not that many have taken advantage of it, they still need dogs which shouldnt be a problem with such a numerically strong breed, but sadly it is.

Wobblers is awful too. That is a degenerative disease, I have seen several with this and owned one too. Fortunately he was ok untill the end and required no surgery. Surgery is usually successfull and in recent years the prognosis is much better. Neck scoring is still available, but like many things, its become rare now to have it done, each vertibrae is scored. The disease can also be bought on by trauma.

Dont worry about your fellow, Im sure he will be fine.
Lots of good useful information...
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mcgregorkh
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23-04-2008, 02:43 PM
Oh you're talking about the time I made a mistake ooh must be nearly 2 years ago and I apologised for that at the time, but back then you didn't say it nicely you were very nasty, and wouldn't let that drop either. In fact I kept away from the site for months and months, because I thought it was a nasty site if thats the response from a genuine mistake.
and many of those breeders who you think are so friendly, were not so pleasant when they saw it!!
Not had one complaint yet which is what I told you in the PM if I remember correctly. Still waiting then, Christ they must be really upset with me NOT.Many of the breeders are not friendly I am not in their league so not worthy of much more than a hello or a nod of recognition. Which again I think I mentioned back in the good old days when you threatened me with them. If they were annoyed they would have said something and ripped me to pieces.

Did you say hypothyroidism has only be made known to you recently? Oh please, do you read anything at all on Dobes? I know several Dobes who have been neck scored, it was all the rage a while ago, but then it switched to VWD, of course there was the "grey" area with that too, but now with DNA testing improvements are being made.

Whats all this volunteering? Dogs can be tested for DCM at 12mths, and its recommended by the canine cardiac specialists that its done every 12mths thereafter, having personal experience of this, I wouldnt wait for "volunteering" Id have it done beforehand, Im sure you know several of the top kennels do this annually.
Yes the thyroid testing has only been made known to me recently and several breeders are doing it and so will I.
Neck scoring nope never heard of that one I admit it but then seeing as I have only been into dobes for nearly 4 years hardly surprising is it and it seems that it was just all the rage until vWD according to you, so a long time ago. And no again I don't know of any breeders whose dogs are neck scored. You know several out of how many hundreds of dobes??? Hardly a big cause for concern if no-one is doing it at all, but if it becomes a recommended test by the experts then it will be done.
The volunteering comes from your post
Have you contributed animals for the DCM research?
You can't contribute to the research unless they are 5 years old. My dog had his heart checked and it was fine, and yes I am aware that it can change overnight (according to my vet that is.) When my dog is 5 he will go onto the programme. He is a blood donor for pet blood bank.
No matter how hard you try to pick fault with my breeding ethics you won't be able to Dawn. You patronise me by saying how can I be a breeder if I haven't bred much and say I don't practice what I preach. The reason I haven't bred much is because I do practice what I preach and am very particular who my dog goes to.
So when are you going to preach to the breeders who are breeding umpteen litters a year from vicious dogs and putting their dogs to nearly anyone who wants to use it? Why don't you take a look at Stud your dog.com see the breeders (relatively well known) who are saying that the bitch doesn't even have to be KC registered or hip scored and have a go at them? Somehow I don't think you will.
This has gone on long enough I'm sure if anyone is reading it then they will be bored to tears.
You might not like me and my opinions but this was meant to be a thread about tails and you have turned it around once again to moaning about dobermanns and have the audacity to question my ethics when that is not what this thread was about.
My apologies to people for getting involved in the argument.
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Borderdawn
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23-04-2008, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by mcgregorkh View Post
Oh you're talking about the time I made a mistake ooh must be nearly 2 years ago and I apologised for that at the time, but back then you didn't say it nicely you were very nasty, and wouldn't let that drop either. In fact I kept away from the site for months and months, because I thought it was a nasty site if thats the response from a genuine mistake. Not had one complaint yet which is what I told you in the PM if I remember correctly. Still waiting then, Christ they must be really upset with me NOT.Many of the breeders are not friendly I am not in their league so not worthy of much more than a hello or a nod of recognition. Which again I think I mentioned back in the good old days when you threatened me with them. If they were annoyed they would have said something and ripped me to pieces.


Yes the thyroid testing has only been made known to me recently and several breeders are doing it and so will I.
Neck scoring nope never heard of that one I admit it but then seeing as I have only been into dobes for nearly 4 years hardly surprising is it and it seems that it was just all the rage until vWD according to you, so a long time ago. And no again I don't know of any breeders whose dogs are neck scored. You know several out of how many hundreds of dobes??? Hardly a big cause for concern if no-one is doing it at all, but if it becomes a recommended test by the experts then it will be done.
The volunteering comes from your post You can't contribute to the research unless they are 5 years old. My dog had his heart checked and it was fine, and yes I am aware that it can change overnight (according to my vet that is.) When my dog is 5 he will go onto the programme. He is a blood donor for pet blood bank.
No matter how hard you try to pick fault with my breeding ethics you won't be able to Dawn. You patronise me by saying how can I be a breeder if I haven't bred much and say I don't practice what I preach. The reason I haven't bred much is because I do practice what I preach and am very particular who my dog goes to.
So when are you going to preach to the breeders who are breeding umpteen litters a year from vicious dogs and putting their dogs to nearly anyone who wants to use it? Why don't you take a look at Stud your dog.com see the breeders (relatively well known) who are saying that the bitch doesn't even have to be KC registered or hip scored and have a go at them? Somehow I don't think you will.
This has gone on long enough I'm sure if anyone is reading it then they will be bored to tears.
You might not like me and my opinions but this was meant to be a thread about tails and you have turned it around once again to moaning about dobermanns and have the audacity to question my ethics when that is not what this thread was about.
My apologies to people for getting involved in the argument.
Karen, I am not picking fault with your breeding, you havent done any!! As I said I am extremely disheartened with the Dobe world at present, to watch this magnificent breed crumble in front of you is heart breaking, I hope you never have to see it, because if you do I can guarantee you will be damn harsh on those who plead ignorance and say "I didnt know"

Yes I did have several well known Dobe people point out that you openly advertise your Dog on sites, sites which are frowned upon by many responsible breeders, but I do agree if that was the mistake and it no longer happens, then of course everyone makes a mistake.

Hypothyroidism has been in Dobermanns for many years. I had talks with Carol Smith some years ago about the possibility of HypoT (shorter to spell ) being connected to DCM, testing for HypoT has been done for at least 8yrs by many people. DCM testing yes, the free contributing is done at 5, (my mistake for not making myself clear) BUT, most responsible breeders test each year, this is a HUGE killer in Dobes as I am sure you are aware. Many breeders are also testing for HypoT each year too.

If you speak to long standing breeders and exhibitors about "Wobblers" Im sure they will tell you how bad it is and that scoring was done extensively. VWD has become the new "rage" for want of a better word and thankfully so, as this is a disease that can be eradicated in a few generations will responsible testing and breeding. I apologise for wrongly assuming you knew about these conditions.


Re the IRresponsible breeders. Yes I agree with you there, which is why I would welcome temperament AND health testing before breeding, sadly I doubt the ones that breed for nothing more than profit will care either way, a non registered pup will only cost them a few quid less in a sale.

So I do think we agree on "some" things, and I never questioned your breeding ethics, just your advertising of your dog at public stud on "some" sites.


Re the breeders not being friendly, its because you are not in the "clique" you know, if the face fits etc... thats in all breeds too, and sometimes its not what you show its who you know!!
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Patch
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23-04-2008, 04:00 PM
Originally Posted by surannon View Post
It's all to do with the tail set IMO. If the breed standard calls for a high set tail on a customarily stacked breed then handlers will hold the tail up (or let the dog hold it up on it's own if they are lucky enough to have one that will!). A lot of terriers have high tail sets so they are held up (or the dog holds them up) when stood.

If the tail is medium set, a continuation of the spine, then tails will normally be left alone or held out straight behind (as is done in setters and spaniels). If the standard calls for the tail to be raised only slightly when moving then why would anyone want it held up (as in bang on top) when stood?

Beagles have tails set on high and carried up but not inclining forward - they are stacked or free stood with their tails up straight.

Bloodhounds also have high set tails but the standard calls for it to be carried scimitar fashion so they are stacked that way.

Debs
Thank you Debs, great explanation
There you go Dawn, *prod* this is the sort of thing Karen is asking about, to see how it may go now for previously docked breeds.

So they will presumably, by virtue of required tail set for each breed, probably get Shown the same as their nearest tail set counterparts which have never been a docked breed, so some breeds tails will be held unless the dog is naturally carrying the tail to requirements unaided whether a usually held tail or not within their breed.

I did come cross a lovely Setter pic, [ on the Crufts photo link which Nursey posted recently ], where the dog was holding the tail herself in the position most are held at by the handlers, and looked up the site for that ones lines where a couple of her progeny sort their own tails for Show stance as well, they do look especially lovely that way I think
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