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Patch
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22-04-2008, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Yes Karen you arent looking, the brown pup is still on the website.

Im not aggresive at all Karen, I just dont like how people alter a breeds construction, then when the docking ban comes in have to have such ridiculous debates about what to do with them, its ridiculous!
Karen did`nt alter the breeds construction ya know

Any breed with a tail should let it hang naturally, I mean how many Rottweiler people are faffing with them? Yes Dobes are top and tailed, but usually moulded into place to hid faults or accentuate the better points.
I do agree with you on that but its not what Karen was asking - she was asking what people are doing currently in the various breeds, not just Dobes, as she has been in the ring and been told to do it this way or that but with no consistency from judge to judge.

I appreciate I have only been involved with them for 20yrs and you have been showing for a few,
Confucius he say driver can get behind wheel of car for 50 years but it does`nt guarantee they will be better driver than someone who has just passed their test
Ok he did`nt say it, I did but the point is fair I think.


and perhaps that makes me not know what Im talking about, but you, the younger showers
Dawn, sorry, but how patronising is that Quit it

should be concentrating on showing dogs with the correct conformation and not be worried about what happens to the appendage that hangs off the back of them, because if the dogs that are being bred were correct, the breed standard would apply, wouldnt it! Look at the brown puppy!!!
Yes it would - but that`s is`nt what she was asking, she is asking what people with various breeds are doing now.
There are many never-been-docked breeds which are shown with their tails being held or propped or not touched or whatever, so why make such an issue of something which rightly or wrongly is the norm in those breeds when someone is simply asking what the norm is likely to be in general in the Show world for various now undocked breeds ?

In your 20 years, how many undocked Dobes have you actually Shown yourself, [ `many` presumably in order to give you a wealth of knowledge about it ], and how did you and any others with whole tailed Dobes in the ring with you deal with their dogs tails, was there any uniformity about it from handler to handler ?

I`m sure with your 20 years experience you`ll be able to help Karen out on that as its exactly what she`s asking, or perhaps stop making this a you v Karen `whose been at it the longest in a breed` type thread and stick to the topic which is, very simply, do most hold tail, support tail, or leave tail alone, among now undocked breeds until such time as the KC or judges indicate what should be the `norm` as is the case with most previously undocked breeds for which there is clear common uniformity within each breed and has been for years as to what is customary to do this or that way with this or that breed.
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mcgregorkh
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22-04-2008, 07:48 PM
Again Dawn you come across quite aggressive. I've no doubt you have had experience with dobes for many years but there are other opinions out there and people that I am talking to and knowing are long standing breeders, who are still showing. I am sure you know much more than me but I am not one of the big breeders who are breeding willy nilly so please nag them about breeding standards and tell them what exactly they should be doing not me. I haven't even bred my own litter yet, I waited for the right bitch to come along that is of fantastic conformation, type, head and temperament and have at least 2 years before a litter is even thought of.
I am interested now you mention it as to what your involvement is with dobes? I know you co-own one, have you ever bred them? You said on a previous post that they are your breed so I assume you have. How many dobes have you shown or bred that are of top breed standard and done lots of winning with? I know you know some people who breed and you advocate their dogs and have known them for years, but thats all I do know about your expertise.
The thing is Dawn you don't know it all, yes you have an opinion and you know what you like in the breed and what it should be like but that doesn't make you the officiado on dobermanns. Once again you have taken a simple thread and turned it into a breeding debate. I say this thread is about how people in DIFFERENT breeds are dealing with the holding (or not) of tails. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you want to have a debate on how disgusted you are by the standard of breeding of dobermanns by all means start a thread or come to a show and say it to the people who are breeding crap.

Thanks Bilclarie I couldn't see it for looking, mind you there are so many on there. Yes my breeder is show and she (and many others) have said as it is on my pic, I was just leaving it before. Funnily enough she was talking to the breeder of the brown puppy and they were discussing tails among other things. I personally am holding her tail as shown because thats what I have been advised by the majority of breeders. I was just curious what others were doing.
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Bilclarie
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22-04-2008, 07:55 PM
German Champion holding his own




Mo and the Gang
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mcgregorkh
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22-04-2008, 08:02 PM
He's very nice, yet his tail is nearly right over which surprises me. That is the first adult show dog I have seen with a tail! I wonder if all of the top European dogs are like that or different positions. Have you got a website link to hand so I can take a looksee please? I wonder what the boxer people are doing in Europe?

Eventually when Krystal is older she will hold it on her own too (hopefully). I don't top and tail Khan and don't want to do it with her either! I am trying to train her to put her tail up on command but it is (shall we say) a work in progress!
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Bilclarie
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22-04-2008, 08:20 PM
Google DVIN its the official dutch Dobermann site with lots of pictures and as they no longer dock there there are loads of pictures of natural dogs, also lots
of pedigrees etc, or you could try googling Dobermann reveiw but there mostly cropped docked dogs on there

Mo and the Gang
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morganstar
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22-04-2008, 08:26 PM
I think a lot of it comes down to comment sense and wether you free stand the dogs or not. In our breed we actually stack the dogs so we have little choice but to hold the tails as we did when they were docked.
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Borderdawn
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22-04-2008, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by mcgregorkh View Post
Again Dawn you come across quite aggressive. I've no doubt you have had experience with dobes for many years but there are other opinions out there and people that I am talking to and knowing are long standing breeders, who are still showing. I am sure you know much more than me but I am not one of the big breeders who are breeding willy nilly so please nag them about breeding standards and tell them what exactly they should be doing not me. I haven't even bred my own litter yet, I waited for the right bitch to come along that is of fantastic conformation, type, head and temperament and have at least 2 years before a litter is even thought of.
I am interested now you mention it as to what your involvement is with dobes? I know you co-own one, have you ever bred them? You said on a previous post that they are your breed so I assume you have. How many dobes have you shown or bred that are of top breed standard and done lots of winning with? I know you know some people who breed and you advocate their dogs and have known them for years, but thats all I do know about your expertise.
The thing is Dawn you don't know it all, yes you have an opinion and you know what you like in the breed and what it should be like but that doesn't make you the officiado on dobermanns. Once again you have taken a simple thread and turned it into a breeding debate. I say this thread is about how people in DIFFERENT breeds are dealing with the holding (or not) of tails. Nothing more, nothing less.
If you want to have a debate on how disgusted you are by the standard of breeding of dobermanns by all means start a thread or come to a show and say it to the people who are breeding crap.

Thanks Bilclarie I couldn't see it for looking, mind you there are so many on there. Yes my breeder is show and she (and many others) have said as it is on my pic, I was just leaving it before. Funnily enough she was talking to the breeder of the brown puppy and they were discussing tails among other things. I personally am holding her tail as shown because thats what I have been advised by the majority of breeders. I was just curious what others were doing.
Oh please!!

Owned Dobes, yes 2 of them, showed one, trialled one, too many construction and health problems for me ever to consider buying another. co-own one, but name only, showed him for a while, he hated it so we didnt continue.

No I certainly wouldnt breed them, but then I dont advertise my Dogs openly and publically at stud either, nor would I.

Yes 20yrs in "Dobes" if you like, rescue, showing, working and whelping a few litters with friends, docking etc when it was legal. I know what I like, I can see what is in front of me, the Dobermann is a far cry from what it was and should be, the temperaments on many leave a lot to be desired, and the tails, well we can all see whats happening there cant we. I suggest if you are going to WELKS, to take a look at the tail sets on the pups there, and their tail carriage. You dont need to be an "expert" on any breed to see its built wrong, you simply need to read the breed standard!

Its interesting you say you havent bred a litter? yet you advertise yourself as "breeders" why would you do that if you never have?

Im not having a dig here, and if you think back to my original post on your puppies thread, all I said was "Nice pup Karen, but loose the tail" no aggresion, no nastiness, no nothing, I merely replied to other posters who asked questions.

In your 20 years, how many undocked Dobes have you actually Shown yourself, [ `many` presumably in order to give you a wealth of knowledge about it ], and how did you and any others with whole tailed Dobes in the ring with you deal with their dogs tails, was there any uniformity about it from handler to handler ?
As I said Patch READ the breed standard, its plain enough to understand! There doesnt need to be uniform within handling for petes sake, its the damn dogs that should be uniform, its called breeding to the breed standard!!
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Patch
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22-04-2008, 08:32 PM
Cant put a direct link as the site has a forum, but here are a couple of examples for you



Jean Dark Grabazzi

* KORAD (Swedish Körung for life)
* Norweigian CH Nordic Winner 2006
* SDW ungh-06
* Phtvl/Phpv- Free
* HD A
* MH - Swedish mentaltest
* Swedish Körung for life
* Vice Winner Swedish Doberman Show 2006 L. Glass, England
* Winner of intermidiate Class Swedish Dobermann Show N. Timmerman-Kadenko, Holland
* V Norweigan Doberman Show 2006 för rasspecialisten Dr Pezzano
* Vice Winner Swedish Doberman Show Rob Douma, Holland
* BOB and CAC and CACIB BIR, NORDIC WINNERSHOW 2006 W.Hubenthal, Norge and Giuseppe Alessandra, Italien
* Vice Winner Swedish Winnershow 2006 R.Hubenthal, Norge.
* Vice Winner Stockholm Wintershow 2007 F. Janeiro, Portugal.
* BOB Sweden Christian Jouanchicot, Frankrike
* BOB and CACIB and Best in Group Thord Byström, Sverige
* BOS and CACIB and qualified for Crufts 2008 Fransesco Janeiro, Portugal
* BOB and CAC and Norweigan Champion Oslo 2007 Michele Palazzo, Italien
* BOB, Best in Group and BEST IN SHOW! 2007 T. Byström & Rolf Pedersen, Norge
* V2 IDC 2007-09-23, Champion class, brown males Norbert Daube, Tyskland




* KORAD (Swedish Körung for life)
* Norwegian Champion
* Thyroidea Free 2006
* BIM på SDK:s special 2003 Torben Tofte Jensen
* BIR på SDK:s special 2003 Merete Dahlgård
* V Swedish Doberman Show 2004 J. Christie
* V Swedish Winnershow 2004 D. Anderson
* V Norweigan Doberman Show Bästa Oslo 2005 Hassi Aschenmascher-Feyel
* V2 Norweigan Doberman Show Oslo 2005
* BOS and CAC Norway 2005
* BOS and CAC Norway 2005 Terje Lindström
* V4 Sweden 2005 R Kilmayer
* V3 Sweden F. Janeiro
* BOS CAC and CACIB Oslo/Norway 2005 R. Ulstad
* V2 Norweigan Doberman Show Oslo 2005
* BOS and CAC and Norweigan Champion 2007 E. Eriksson
* BOS and CAC 2007 Oslo L. Brand
* V4 Sweden C. Jouanchicot, Frankrike
* V4 Sweden T. Byström Sweden
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Borderdawn
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22-04-2008, 08:38 PM
Yep, a Chow tail there too!! totally different to the other one, thats what I mean about no consistency.
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Patch
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22-04-2008, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post

As I said Patch READ the breed standard, its plain enough to understand! There doesnt need to be uniform within handling for petes sake, its the damn dogs that should be uniform, its called breeding to the breed standard!!
Dawn, READ my post properly, this thread is not about breeding, its not about skeletal tail set of one breed, its about :
`there are customary ways to Show never-been-docked breeds with regards to holding or supporting tails or not from breed to breed - is there any `customary development` occuring yet among the previously docked breeds, and what trends are appearing from breed to breed if any`.
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