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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 09:30 PM
One other thing Colin, Merlin would NOT of been passed on his confirmation tests if he had an undershot jaw, you seem to have forgotten that.
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Colin
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28-03-2008, 09:38 PM
Anne-Marie first of all my critique of Merlin was in post 20 and not the one you highlighted from.

The reason I made that statement you highlighted was because Mo the OP had already stated that Merlin had been given excellent 1 for his confirmation in France (Post 3), and Dawn (Borderdawn) in post 22 had stated and I quote "I can see where his markings are a bit smudgy there Mo" and I had also said that his coat was patchy.

I'm sorry but the fact are really simple. This dog would not reach the standard required to enter into a German championship show, You see the standard of those shows is really high and all I was trying to do was put things into perspective. It just that Merlin is not in the same league as a full German dobe so would be able to enter.

Also I have never once been rude to either the OP or Dawn, all I'm doing is pointing out observations about Merlin as I see them. These are my opinions about the dog and no one else’s.

The other thing is that I said in post 20 and I quote "but his lower jaw looks very slightly undershot, but that could just be the photo". At no point have I condemned the dog, as Minihaha seems to think. So please don't try to make my comments into something they are not.

For all those that are trying to work out how you can tell if a dog has a undershot jaw or not you need to look at the teeth and not the jaw itself.

An undershot jaw is when the front teeth (incisors) of the lower jaw overlap or project beyond the front of the upper jaw when the mouth is closed. Boxers and Bulldogs are good examples of this bite. All Dobes will be disqualified from the breed ring in the UK if it is "undershot" by more than 1/8 of an inch.

The proper bite is a "true scissors" -lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors.

Just so you know an Overshot jaw is when the front teeth (incisors) of the upper jaw overlap and do not touch the front teeth of the lower jaw when the mouth is closed. All Dobes will be disqualified from the breed ring in the UK if it is "overshot" more than 3/16 of an inch.

I hope that has cleared up the issue once and for all.
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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
Anne-Marie first of all my critique of Merlin was in post 20 and not the one you highlighted from.

The reason I made that statement you highlighted was because Mo the OP had already stated that Merlin had been given excellent 1 for his confirmation in France (Post 3), and Dawn (Borderdawn) in post 22 had stated and I quote "I can see where his markings are a bit smudgy there Mo" and I had also said that his coat was patchy.

I'm sorry but the fact are really simple. This dog would not reach the standard required to enter into a German championship show, You see the standard of those shows is really high and all I was trying to do was put things into perspective. It just that Merlin is not in the same league as a full German dobe so would be able to enter.

Also I have never once been rude to either the OP or Dawn, all I'm doing is pointing out observations about Merlin as I see them. These are my opinions about the dog and no one else’s.

The other thing is that I said in post 20 and I quote "but his lower jaw looks very slightly undershot, but that could just be the photo". At no point have I condemned the dog, as Minihaha seems to think. So please don't try to make my comments into something they are not.

For all those that are trying to work out how you can tell if a dog has a undershot jaw or not you need to look at the teeth and not the jaw itself.

An undershot jaw is when the front teeth (incisors) of the lower jaw overlap or project beyond the front of the upper jaw when the mouth is closed. Boxers and Bulldogs are good examples of this bite. All Dobes will be disqualified from the breed ring in the UK if it is "undershot" by more than 1/8 of an inch.

The proper bite is a "true scissors" -lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors.

Just so you know an Overshot jaw is when the front teeth (incisors) of the upper jaw overlap and do not touch the front teeth of the lower jaw when the mouth is closed. All Dobes will be disqualified from the breed ring in the UK if it is "overshot" more than 3/16 of an inch.

I hope that has cleared up the issue once and for all.
No Colin it clears nothing up! You stated the dog is DEFINATELY undershot, he isnt, he couldnt of got his conformation pass if he had a mouth fault. They COUNT teeth on the continent Colin, a LOT of English Dobes have missing teeth, they would be dismissed on the continent, there isnt any chance that Merlin is undershot, however much an expert you are, you are wrong here.
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Colin
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28-03-2008, 10:02 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
No Colin it clears nothing up! You stated the dog is DEFINATELY undershot, he isnt, he couldnt of got his conformation pass if he had a mouth fault. They COUNT teeth on the continent Colin, a LOT of English Dobes have missing teeth, they would be dismissed on the continent, there isnt any chance that Merlin is undershot, however much an expert you are, you are wrong here.
So I suppose your not.
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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 10:05 PM
Not an expert no Colin, but having exhibited several breeds for 20yrs, and owned several too, plus working with upto 116 Dogs a day at any one time, I think its fair to say I have seen a few undershot, overshot, wry mouths.
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Jackie
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28-03-2008, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
Many English bred Dobes lack strength of muzzle, and have weak underjaws. Round eyes are also a problem. Continental bred Dobes excel in head.
Lovely dog, have to say , the same goes for Boxers.. the continental head is something to in ore of
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Mahooli
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28-03-2008, 10:10 PM
Colin, in all the pictures, open mouthed or not, his lower jaw is quite clearly BEHIND his top jaw, if anything the only claim that could be made based on this pictures is that he is overshot not undershot.
Even a reverse scissor it is clear that the bottom jaw is forward of the top jaw.
Having imported German bred dogs I can confirm that they do indeed count all the teeth and they have to have 42 to pass and certainly couldn't have an incorrect bite to be graded as Excellent.
Becky
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Colin
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28-03-2008, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Borderdawn View Post
No Colin it clears nothing up! You stated the dog is DEFINATELY undershot, he isnt, he couldnt of got his conformation pass if he had a mouth fault. They COUNT teeth on the continent Colin, a LOT of English Dobes have missing teeth, they would be dismissed on the continent, there isnt any chance that Merlin is undershot, however much an expert you are, you are wrong here.
So I suppose your not or just can't be wrong then.

Sorry what you said about him not being able to get his conformation pass is not strictly true, because it only requires one judge to miss something simple as we are all human you know.

I have seen dogs get placings in shows where alot of other people have disagreed as I expect you have, but that doesn't mean that the placed dog was the best dog does it?

I never once mentioned the fact that he didn't have a full set of teeth or if he had any missing, so where did that come from.

What we are talking about is the alignment of the teeth and there placing, hence why I made the point in my above that it was not the jaw itself that indicates an under or over shot jaw.

Lets get something clear right now. I have never said that I am a expect, but have just had these dog around me since birth so I have gain alot of knowledge about this breed. If you don't like someone disagreeing with your opinion then I suggest you change thread.
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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Mahooli View Post
Colin, in all the pictures, open mouthed or not, his lower jaw is quite clearly BEHIND his top jaw, if anything the only claim that could be made based on this pictures is that he is overshot not undershot.
Even a reverse scissor it is clear that the bottom jaw is forward of the top jaw.
Having imported German bred dogs I can confirm that they do indeed count all the teeth and they have to have 42 to pass and certainly couldn't have an incorrect bite to be graded as Excellent.
Becky
Becky, im sure its the underjaw he is referring to, the fact it is deep and he isnt used to seeing a correct one. By correct I mean a GOOD underjaw, sadly lacking in many Dobes here.
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Borderdawn
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28-03-2008, 10:23 PM
Originally Posted by Colin View Post
So I suppose your not or just can't be wrong then.

Sorry what you said about him not being able to get his conformation pass is not strictly true, because it only requires one judge to miss something simple as we are all human you know.

I have seen dogs get placings in shows where alot of other people have disagreed as I expect you have, but that doesn't mean that the placed dog was the best dog does it?

I never once mentioned the fact that he didn't have a full set of teeth or if he had any missing, so where did that come from.

What we are talking about is the alignment of the teeth and there placing, hence why I made the point in my above that it was not the jaw itself that indicates an under or over shot jaw.

Lets get something clear right now. I have never said that I am a expect, but have just had these dog around me since birth so I have gain alot of knowledge about this breed. If you don't like someone disagreeing with your opinion then I suggest you change thread.
I have absolutely no problem with somebody disagreeing with me, but you have catagorically stated the dog is undershot, when is is passed "excellent" on confirmation and temperament. Its NOT a judging thing Colin with these tests, the dogs are tested on specific details, points of the body, MOUTH, teeth, construction and temperament. They dont pass as excellent if they fail any one point, its not like a dog show, the prettiest one gets passed, or the one that catches the judges eye, Im not sure you understand what the grading is all about?

I have seen dogs get placings in shows where alot of other people have disagreed as I expect you have, but that doesn't mean that the placed dog was the best dog does it?
Colin thats a dog show! The judges choice of what he thinks looks best on the day, NOT a conformation and temperament exam.
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