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scorpio
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24-11-2006, 11:05 AM

What Placing Would You Give A Neutered Dog?

I know there was a thread about this recently but this is a different question and one that may effect me personally, only time will tell, so your honest opinions will really be of help.
I know that neutered dogs can be shown, with permission from the Kennel Club but I wondered what your opinions would be if you were the judge.
Say, for example, you have a puppy class of 5 pups, all around the same age, give or take a few days. Puppy A has been neutered but is an exceptional pup in all other ways. The 2nd pup, Puppy B is of equal quality but has an overshot jaw, the 3rd pup, Puppy C is also of equal quality but flies its tail and has a huge black patch on its side, (both bad faults in English Setters), the 4th and 5th pups both have their testicles and good mouths but one is very upright in the shoulder and plain in head, (Puppy D) and the other has very light bone and doesn't move too soundly from the rear (Puppy E).
(I realise that not everyone knows about setters so if you think of an equal fault for the tail flying and patch in your particular breed that should put that fault into your perspective).
How would you place these dogs in order of merit and what would be your reasons?
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IsoChick
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24-11-2006, 11:43 AM
Although I don't show dogs, I still struggle with the whole neutered/non neutered thing and showing.

As far as I can see, providing the dogs are good examples of their breed in every other way (or not as the case may be) they should be judged on these criteria only. Not the fact that they may or may not have been neutered.

If puppy A in your scenario above is the best in the class (leaving out the neuter issue) then he should be placed first.
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rachelsetters
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24-11-2006, 11:46 AM
Probably silly question - what would be the reasons for neutering? I assume both dogs had fully descended testicles prior to the neutering?
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megan57collies
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24-11-2006, 12:14 PM
Totally theoretically speaking, if the neutered dog was the best example of the breed then it would be placed first. I cannot place the others as applying colour etc. to my breed, white should not predominate so you don't see this being shown. If this is as serious in your breed then perhaps this dog should be put last. Maybe not. Gay tails, the bain of my life. A gay tail does not always suggest bad tail set just a very happy dog. Some judges frown heavily on it and some don't. Personally I would try and see beyond it as I struggled for two years with this problem on one of my dogs. As for the others depends on how well they moved etc. So it's hard pick out. If you asked me what was worse a gay tail or an overshot mouth, I would say the overshot mouth personally.
If the point you are trying to make is whether the neutered should be treated diffferentely from the others in the class, then no it shouldn't. Unfortunately as I have said before some judges do. If I was judging it would make no difference because I believe that showing shouldn't just be for those wanting to breed on from that dog. It's for everyone to do whether they choose to breed or not and neutering is a personal choice
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scorpio
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24-11-2006, 12:20 PM
I've been keeping this close to my chest but my beautiful little Bradley has now got both his testicles but is having tests as one seems to have a growth or some abnormality. It may mean I have to have him castrated but he is exceptional, (I know I bred him and I'm biased but the vet and several other breeders agree that he is an outstanding pup), so I would like to show him if I thought he stood a chance. I don't want him to get pushed out of the running if people feel so strongly that his other qualities don't merit an award. I'm not one of these people that have to win all the time but, equally, I expect that if I'm paying my entry fee that I should have the same chance as any of the other competitors.
Bradley is far more important to me than just a show dog and I had resigned myself to the fact the I wouldn't show him, but so many strangers have made a point of coming over and telling me how nice he is, I just thought I'd see what the general concensus is on the subject.
I realise that there are no perfect dogs and they all have their faults, its just that something like flat feet or short neck can be cleverly disguised by trimming. Something as obvious as a bad mouth or lack of testicles just cannot be hidden.
If I were judging I would not let the fact that a dog has been neutered sway my opinion, if he were the best in the class then I wouldn't hesitate to give him the first prize. I suppose I'm trying to get a feel of how other people would react in that position.
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IsoChick
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24-11-2006, 12:33 PM
Poor Bradley - hope he is OK (with or without his bits!)

I get told Max could be shown all the time, but since he is neutered and un-docked, we'd have no chance in the show ring!!

Although the KC Boxer Breed Standard has a tail standard in it, I'm told a lot of judges mark down on an undocked dog, even if said dog is the best in every other way.

If you had Bradley neutered for medical reasons plus a KC approval/letter than noted why he was done, would that not 'appease' the judges slightly?

I honestly can't see why neutering is frowned upon when showing dogs.
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scorpio
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24-11-2006, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by IsoChick View Post
Poor Bradley - hope he is OK (with or without his bits!)

I get told Max could be shown all the time, but since he is neutered and un-docked, we'd have no chance in the show ring!!

Although the KC Boxer Breed Standard has a tail standard in it, I'm told a lot of judges mark down on an undocked dog, even if said dog is the best in every other way.

If you had Bradley neutered for medical reasons plus a KC approval/letter than noted why he was done, would that not 'appease' the judges slightly?

I honestly can't see why neutering is frowned upon when showing dogs.
Thanks Isochick, just keeping my fingers crossed for Bradley but will do what I have to do to keep him safe from harm. If I do show him I would get KC approval so would have a letter to show the judge so it would all be aboveboard. I just wonder if judges will have the balls, (pardon the pun) to place him if they feel he is the best one.
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megan57collies
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24-11-2006, 12:43 PM
I think views are changing thankfully in the ring. And come next year your undocked dog won't look that much out of place. It's nice to see undocked breeds getting places in the breed as it doesn't really change the rest of the dog does it?
I've said before on here. It shouldn't matter if the dog is neutered or not but some judges will still penalise this as no text has been added to the breed standards. This is where the KC need to synchronise their rules with the breed standards. If they allow neutered dogs to be shown then BS should be ammended to state this along with the descended testicle bit.
I'm guessing the BS will be changing on the traditonal docked breeds so why not add about neutered dogs too.
Unfortunately its very difficult to complain about a judge without looking like your being a spoilsport. Hopefully in time, views will change as new judges come in with more of an open mind (that's not to say their are judges already out there who judge with this)
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lovezois
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24-11-2006, 12:53 PM
I agree with Megan if I was judging and the neutered dog was the best in the class I would place him first, but I too have to say that most judges do not see it that way and would penalise him for being neutered which I think is very unfair. I also agree with Megan that an undershot or overshot mouth is a worse fault than a dog who is happy in the ring and has a gay tail, but nothing wrong with the tail placement and from my own experience I can say that I have lost placing because of this from a lot of judges which again I find unfair. I aslo have to saythat I do not feel that undocked dogs should be penalised either but again a lot of judges do penalise this And again in my opinion this is unfair.
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scorpio
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24-11-2006, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by megan57collies View Post
I think views are changing thankfully in the ring. And come next year your undocked dog won't look that much out of place. It's nice to see undocked breeds getting places in the breed as it doesn't really change the rest of the dog does it?
I've said before on here. It shouldn't matter if the dog is neutered or not but some judges will still penalise this as no text has been added to the breed standards. This is where the KC need to synchronise their rules with the breed standards. If they allow neutered dogs to be shown then BS should be ammended to state this along with the descended testicle bit.
I'm guessing the BS will be changing on the traditonal docked breeds so why not add about neutered dogs too.
Unfortunately its very difficult to complain about a judge without looking like your being a spoilsport. Hopefully in time, views will change as new judges come in with more of an open mind (that's not to say their are judges already out there who judge with this)
Thanks for your level headed comments, I have to say agree with everything you've written. I suppose I just wanted to hear from others that they would give him a fair chance if he was the best in the class, I know there'll be times when he wouldn't win even if he did have all his bits, thats politics but then again, thats a whole new debate. Thanks again
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