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chaz
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24-08-2010, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
I'm saying a dog with excessive, not decent (which is defined as meeting accepted standards; adequate), feathering will be hindered in thick cover by this feathering thereby preventing it from doing it's job properly.

Here's a dictionary definition of moderate:

Being within reasonable limits; not excessive or extreme

Now, are you seriously trying to tell me that the second picture I posted is neither excessive nor extreme when breeding a dog to go through thick cover to flush game?

Oh I looked at the links Dawn and I commented on them, they're the same links you use everytime this debate arises. As I said, the Springer was bred to be hunter first and foremost, retrieving has come in very late in the breeds history. Yes these dogs can retrieve, but that is not their original purpose - which is to find and flush game.

There are many show kennels that truly work their Springers beating, but they have to trim a lot of the feathering away to enable the dog to do this. I don't assume, I know. To me this is entirely incorrect - the dogs should be bred with the correct "moderate" feathering in the first place. The "moderate" feathering which is clearly asked for in the breed standard!!!! I'm not having a go at those that do work their Show Springers in the field, but it's about time show people pulled their heads out of the sand and stopped breeding dogs to be flashy and go back to breeding to the breed standard, not to fashionable extremes.


I totally agree with this and would welcome something whereby a show dog does not get its show title until it has proven it's worth in it's particular field.
I agree with your whole post on this subject, I am a girl who prefers working breeds to look at, but I believe that there shouldn't be such a divide, and that show dogs should be judged on more things then just showing in a ring, I mean there is such a divide on things, I remember one person in the US who wants the American Cocker spaniel to be removed from the group it is, and I don't say I blame her, I mean how many people would work a dog like that, but its in the gundog group, I mean seriously, who would take this dog out for a day working? There are IMO more of a companion dogs, and probally make very good pets (the one I met was a biter though).

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Jackie
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24-08-2010, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by Ripsnorterthe2nd View Post
I don't know and I don't really care tbh, I'm talking about working gundogs, and more accurately English Springers.

Thanks though.
I see, so your "fit for function, fit for life " only applies to gun dogs, or more specific, the springer
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chaz
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24-08-2010, 11:55 AM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
So what field would lets say a pug or any other toy breed have to partake in to prove its worth , before it can take a tittle in the show ring!!
Little dogs are only little to their owners paps are a breed that do well in agility, I've heard of Chihuahua agility too with special sized jumps, although agility might not be right for flat faced breeds they still have brains and can show that to the world with obience, and have a nose so can do scent retrieval, theres always something physically and mentally stimulating for dogs to do and proove themselves in.
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Jackie
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24-08-2010, 12:03 PM
Originally Posted by chaz View Post
Little dogs are only little to their owners paps are a breed that do well in agility, I've heard of Chihuahua agility too with special sized jumps, although agility might not be right for flat faced breeds they still have brains and can show that to the world with obience, and have a nose so can do scent retrieval, theres always something physically and mentally stimulating for dogs to do and proove themselves in.
So a Pug/Chi / pap, should gain a title in agility /obedience before it can gain a CC or become a champion
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Jackie
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24-08-2010, 12:11 PM
Originally Posted by chaz View Post
I agree with your whole post on this subject, I am a girl who prefers working breeds to look at, but I believe that there shouldn't be such a divide, and that show dogs should be judged on more things then just showing in a ring, I mean there is such a divide on things, I remember one person in the US who wants the American Cocker spaniel to be removed from the group it is, and I don't say I blame her, I mean how many people would work a dog like that, but its in the gundog group, I mean seriously, who would take this dog out for a day working? There are IMO more of a companion dogs, and probally make very good pets (the one I met was a biter though).

I think these people may disagree with you on that!!

http://www.acscgb.com/files/img/logo_qcms.jpg

http://www.nationalgundog.org/theass...files/spcr.gif
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chaz
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24-08-2010, 12:14 PM
Originally Posted by Jackbox View Post
So a Pug/Chi / pap, should gain a title in agility /obedience before it can gain a CC or become a champion
The kc are the ones saying 'fit for function, fit for life' which means nothing unless they are going to do something to prove thats what they want and not a meaning less phrase for PR or something simalar, so they either mean it and should do something to show they do, or the don't and should abolish the phrase, dogs that were bred for companions may not be able partake in trails to proove that, but they can prove their mind and bodys are fit for life.
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Jackie
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24-08-2010, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by chaz View Post
The kc are the ones saying 'fit for function, fit for life' which means nothing unless they are going to do something to prove thats what they want and not a meaning less phrase for PR or something simalar, so they either mean it and should do something to show they do, or the don't and should abolish the phrase, dogs that were bred for companions may not be able partake in trails to proove that, but they can prove their mind and bodys are fit for life.
So lets take the Pug, he has to prove he can go over an agility jump or , be good at obedience to get the title of "fit for function"

What about the pug that goes on long walks with his owner, everyday, is he not proving he is "fit and healthy " by being able to run /walk round a park/field / beach/woods on a daily basis,

What more "fit for function" do you need????

He is not bred to work, he is not bred to run around fields and pick up game, or do any of the work working/gun dogs have been bred to do.

So not sure how the KC can accused of a PR ploy, where small toy dogs are concerned,

A healthy well bred toy breed should be fit for function by the simple fact he is well bred.

The ones you see that cant walk ,/breath or over weight will be down to bad breeding and owner neglect.
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DevilDogz
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24-08-2010, 12:42 PM
Give me a ship full of rats and Im sure my breed could still do what it was bred for.
They keep my bed warm...so still doing what they were bred for.
and im sure you can still kill and eat them, so again you could still use them for what they were bred for back in the day.

Lots of chinese cresteds compete in agility and do other activites, this makes them no fitter than another well looked after crested that gets the correct care.

But then again the working history of a breed has nothing to so with presentation ... I personally wouldnt enjoy working my dogs at a serious level. I enjoy fun agility and the like but wouldnt want to compete at a serious level to prove my dog could run and jump I enjoy showing my dogs off in the ring, showing others what good examples of the breed I have, and hope judges agree. I dont need to compete in agility to know my dogs are fit and healthy - as really it proves ... nothing.
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chaz
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24-08-2010, 12:57 PM
There was a photo in a magazine of a pekingnese at crufts who was laid on blocks that contained ice with a fan on it to is that fit for life? It was at crufts so in theory shouldn't be badly bred there are problems associated with dogs that can't be seen in a ring but might be more apparent asking the dog to do something else, if people are being told by the kc the dogs are 'fit for function, fit for life' it should be proved, not just said, otherwise its all talk and no trousers imo i'm afraid, if dogs can't do things for certain reasons then they should imo be health tested and the judge know the results and use them to judge the dogs too.

Also going for walks with the owner is all well and good, but at dog shows the judge cant see the dog walk for a long time each day, they have to go on what they see, they may see a dog in better condition, but they can't neccasary see the dogs activity level.
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DevilDogz
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24-08-2010, 01:04 PM
Yes all dogs should be health tested, and that should go on the over all look of the dog.. But show dogs are judged against the breed standard, which may I add states nothing what so ever about working the dogs, or the working history of a breed.

Just the same as when you are judging a working dog, you dont care about it being as close to the breed standard as possible, you just want a good little worker.


Yep I saw that picture.. I also saw one on the same page of a Chinese Crested with a rash being covered over with talc... and clearly the owner had shaved the dog so hard that its skin had gone red raw These pictures ayy.. tell some 'intresting' stories.. and werent even taken at crufts just used for the crufts article.


Not being funny, but any judge, well any person althogether can tell if a dog is fit or not.....Also some breeds have low active levels, and some dogs of certain breeds will have lower active levels than others in the breed doesnt mean their not fit and healthy or a good example of the breed in all areas.
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