You say this as if it's fine to do so. It's not. If people cannot live with cats being cats, or manage them in other ways, why use an ecollar?

Some dogs or cats don't dare move due to the confusing and scaring effect of the collar in this situaton. One was even on "It's me or the dog" - dog refused to enter the garden.... it was too afraid of the boundary collar.

So the previously housetrained dog started weeing and pooing in the house. Great result - NOT.

They use them with horses too, when weaving/ cribbing. Yet this may well be due to ulcers and pain and the horses may be trying to relieve that. This is recent study. Yet manufacturers just prefer the "slap on an ecollar" approach.

Wys
x

Interestingly, and sadly, I do know of a dog who started to have epileptic fits after the owners started using an ecollar. There is no evidence the ecollar was to blame as such, its only anecdotal, but even so ....

Wys
x

A good point Emma, and very very valid indeed.

(See the case histories mentioned earlier...

http://www.apbc.org.uk/sites/default...nsultation.pdf scroll down to page 6)

Wys
x

Yes, agree. Really they are positive punishment and negative reinforcement devices. I've heard it dressed up all the time as "negative reinforcement" which sounds so nice as the word "reinforcement" is in there, sounding so innocuous.

One strong supporter even started to suggest their use was "rewarding" Not on the dogs I've seen having it used on them it wasn't.

Wys
x

I am speechless that someone who has done the degree I read through thinks it is OK to use one on any animal.

I find it frightening that AP is so measured about it in his posts----no thought of the dogs/cats emotions or possible fallout.

I assume the sheep chasing dogs will have to wear them all their lives---no one but an idiot would suggest otherwise. It only takes a minute of forgetting and too much temptation and the dog will run through the shocks. It has happened with gundogs.

Then you have a dead sheep and dead dog. Not to mention the rest of the flock.

My dog shoved through our hedge and chased the sheep in the field (we have fields two sides with sheep in). I taught him an instant recall with the help of a spray collar with air only in it. It was taught away from the sheep and he only ever wore it the once. The recall was reinforced with high value rewards and practised everywhere I could before using a friends sheep to proof him.

He is high drive----in fact he recalls without looking at me if he is intent on herding, sometimes he gets the wrong legs. I don't care as long as he can be called off a chase.

rune

No dressing up required here just a bit of logic...
Do I want to train dogs to do what I want them to do by building trust between us and rewarding them for required behaviour so they wish to repeat it and do so eagerly,
..or do I want to train dogs using pain/discomfort/fear and risk not only breaking the trust between us but introducing new behavioural problems which may not become apparent for some time.

If there is something a dog can't be trained to do for example because it has a very high prey drive (which is after all what we have selectively bred some dogs to have ) being a human with the powers of reasoning I will think of some way to manage the situation.

ETA And before anyone tells me e collars don't cause pain/discomfort/fear well if they don't it means the dog can't feel them in which case there is no point in using them.

no it would not!!! as if u were not getting the desired effect from training...out would come your 'tool'....i truly hope you do not get one as an experiment!!

I think you`ve summed it up beautifully there.
Ok - back on topic:
I believe that cruelty to animals can`t be excused by expediency.
There are better, more humane, more intelligent, more efficacious ways.

Sheep

No they don't have to wear them all their lives. The malamute hasn't worn his for 10 days and will only have it back when introduced to sheep in an unfamilar location.
Technically the training doesn't stop chasing, they stop the look which occurs before the chase.

Minihahha

Even when e collar training a recall 80% of the reinforcement is pr, re your other point, sometimes people can't manage the dog so the e collar is a kind and effective solution.

Discomfort

Yes it's discomfort. The same princple that makes halti's and harnesses prevent pulling. The reason they've lots of levels is because different dogs sensitivity varies. One dog may feel it on 20, another 30 and another 40. If the collars only had one level of sensation that wouldn't be felt by some dogs and would be too strong for others. Each dogs sensitivity is unique to it as an indivadual.

Epilepsy

I believe an e collar manufacture commission some research into medical implications, the research found that the strength of the current could do no harm to the animal. Tritronics was the company.

STock feces use way more voltage than even a collar set on the highest setting.

Spray collars

I've used in the past and will maybe use again, but there not great.
A. some dogs aren't bothered by them (don't even register it) so ineffective
B. those that do register it are often very startled by them, typical reactions include. The dog jumping and moving rapidly away, cowering body language, sensitisation to other hissy noises (air breaks ect) these big reactions indecate the dog is under lots more aversive than the mild reaction when he feels a sensation. So it's a more severe aversive, I want to be nice to the dog so would sooner not use a severe aversive.

Cats
My cats roam as they like, I live in the country. People who use cat e collars may live in the town were the cat could be in danger if it left the garden. A pen might provide a solution but would be smaller than the garden. Econmics may prevent you fencing the whole garden. An e collar might provide the cat with more freedom and safety.

I've used an e collar to correct predatory interest in cats (the dog also liked sheep) using my approach the dog learned not to view the cat as prey which enabled us to clicker the dog into liking the cat. They ended up being good friends and are always left alone together.
The cat trained itself!

Wyswig
My e collar training is 80% pr so not comparable to the stuff you dislike. Having said that I have done some training were it's 100% nr (sheep) and the dog appears to be in no distress. When doing follow up sessions the dog is excited to see me as last time we went for a nice walk.

The invisible fence training was done wrong, they turned it up high and didn't show the dog not to approach. If they hadn't used the fence they would propably of used another aversive or given the dog away. I noticed the pr approach of stilwell didn't make the dog sociable enough to go to the dog park.

Ellies

I use the lead to show what I want, I can also do it without a lead but using the lead is clearer so better. The rest of the training sounds very much like my e collar approach.

Wilbar

NR shows the animal very very clearly what you want, you release the pressure the instant the animal does the right thing. The pressure when not doing the right thing means that when experiencing no pressure the animal is in a constant state of getting it right. With a clicker unless your clicking the animal is not actively getting it right. jmho

Adam

Emma

1.
studies I've seen were they concluded that the e collar was bad for the dogs also discribed the dogs reaction to the collar. This reaction was always above first level and thus showed to me that the study was invalid when compared to what I do.

I used to be anti them (three yrs ago) but after researching them became pro. I read all the anti stuff going and also read all the pro stuff going and reached my conclusions. I continue to research them.

2.

They're being baned because they sound bad and because high profile organisations use banning them as a way of promoting themselves. They're being banned because people don't do their research properly and make an emotive or political decision.

MALAMUTE

All other avenues had been looked into (he fitted my criteria). He got lucky once (slipped the lead and killed two) then became obsessed and escaped from the house (
through a window) and got another. Even before this happened they knew something had to change as he wasn't getting enough exercise and was becoming distressed. BTW their circumstances had changed.

Hand pressure.

E collars are remote (far away) so had pressure wouldn't work. Also they're not associated with you. Using hand pressure would be associated with you which I don't want, human should always be none aversive.

The truth is they do use electric, the truth is it's no more aversive than hand pressure. Often people are caught up in the electric concept.

I always discuss instinct, breed history. What's the point is discussing another breed if they want to keep the one they have now? Also apart from this problem the breed may be suitable and the e collar may deal with his problem so why need a different breed.

Operant conditioning direct from wikipedia!

1.Positive reinforcement adds something to the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
2.Negative reinforcement removes something from the situation to increase the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
3.Positive punishment adds something to the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.
4.Negative punishment removes something from the situation to decrease the chance of the behaviour being exhibited again.

Tupac
I like my collies and jrts. If a husky came along and was neeing a home I might consider it. I'd be very interested in wether I could do it without an e collar.
Malamutes are lovely but huge!

Emotions

The emotions are the core of any training, if you can train the right attitude the behaviours will fall into place. I'd sooner have a dog keep an eye on me, than always have to give a command to get attention. Note I'm not after that always watching you focuse some people train for (no chance to be a dog there) just the dog being aware of me.

I find when using an e colalr the dog is not i a bad place emotionally. In fact many dogs are in a much bettr place then without, because the e collar allows you to enforce wanted behaviour and inhibit unwanted behaviour the dog is o longer in a state of conflict between your rewards and the environment. As an example the dog whose trained with just pr to recall off sheep may be in a state of conflict because it wants the sheep but also wants your pr. If the e collar is used the dog isn't in conflict because he no longer wants the sheep and can focuse fully on your pr.

Adam