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alady??
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31-07-2009, 02:15 PM
[QUOTE=Mahooli;1745307]The actual words he says are

"but you do have to dominate. Dominate in the animal world is healthy. It's how they keep things balanced."

and I have to say that is a complete load of bullocks! It is a complete misunderstanding of all animal behaviour that it is all about domination, it isn't. In fact I would go as far as to say that no animal uses domination.

Again I have to completely disagree with you Mahooli, sorry i think the cause of disagreement is mainly on the use and understanding of the word "dominant"

dom⋅i⋅nant
  /ˈdɒmənənt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [dom-uh-nuhnt] Show IPA
Use dominant in a Sentence
–adjective
1. ruling, governing, or controlling; having or exerting authority or influence: dominant in the chain of command.
2. occupying or being in a commanding or elevated position.


The Lion pride was cited as anothe example, again incorrect. The pride is made of of related females with unrelated adult males who protect and patrol their territory. No dominance there.

The young lions and lionesses NEVER feed before the old "dominant/governing" lions.

The wolf pack, it has been proven time and again that the breeding pair are just that, the fittest and most able to breed, the remainder of the pack is usually made up of family members,

The last docu I watched on wolf behaviour the dominant/governing pair were pretty old and by no manner the fittest, they rule the pack by "governing" behaviour.
.
When animals fight it has nothing to do with dominance and all to do with survival of the fittest. That which is strong and powerful enough to see off rivals goes on to produce the next generation.

This is true, but in most species their is a big difference between a full blown fight and "governing" the pack/pride or whatever, generlly it is a warning or "told off" that is inflicted by the dominant/governing members

In groups of primates, they go on about the dominante male but the reality is that there is usually more than one at the top and the males are supported by females in a group. Again males protect and patrol the territory and that is usually done by ALL the older males in the group not just those that are deemed 'dominant'. It has also been shown that not all offspring in primate groups are sired by the male that humans deem to be the boss and the girls chose the one they fancy if they can get away with it!

And this is absolutely nothing like the behaviour of a wolf pack I have ever seen, animals learn by the behaviour of those "above" them, first their mother, then the rest of the pack, pride, their family, they learn by interaction and boundaries, in the animal kingdom the wayward juevenile WILL get put in its place if it does not behave in the proper manner, ie if it bites too hard, if it strays from the pack, if it tries to feed first ALL things that are encouraged in our behaviour with our dogs in order to maintain a healthy balance and order within our mixed specias family..

IMO
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Trouble
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31-07-2009, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by rune View Post
Thats abn intersting picture. Mine don't walk that close to me unless I have handfulls of titbits. They tend to want to sniff around on walks and be dogs.

No gundogs there (G)

rune
I don't think it's particularly interesting at all and taken from a peculiar angle if it's actually trying to show anything. That's his migratory walk, he walks and runs at a reasonable pace and they fall in behind etc. mine do exactly the same thing. Wandering, sniffing and pottering about etc. come at a different stage of the walk.
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alady??
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31-07-2009, 02:18 PM
Meant to say Lizzy you are doing a great job with your dog, I rescued a BC that had been dumped by the "old school" and it took 6 years before he would play with a toy.....and when he did I cried with happiness, it was a bloody hard 6 years....

also I may or may not agree with CM but I have every respect for someone who can have so many dogs penned together that all seem very laid back and happy
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CheekyChihuahua
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31-07-2009, 02:23 PM
Originally Posted by alady?? View Post
I may or may not agree with CM but I have every respect for someone who can have so many dogs penned together that all seem very laid back and happy
Exactly. He must be doing something right IMO. All of his dogs look so confident and happy. I think that kind of disproves that he rules by fear, as some would have us believe
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Lizzy23
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31-07-2009, 02:29 PM
i do agree with some of it, like the calm assertive bits and trying to lead, what i don't believe in is all the forcing, and that my dogs should do whatever i want no matter what.

Thanks Alady?? i do try hard, and working in rescue you end up keeping the ones that are not rehomable so end up with extremes of behaviour
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Ramble
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31-07-2009, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Lizzy23 View Post
i do agree with some of it, like the calm assertive bits and trying to lead, what i don't believe in is all the forcing, and that my dogs should do whatever i want no matter what.
Thanks Alady?? i do try hard, and working in rescue you end up keeping the ones that are not rehomable so end up with extremes of behaviour
Exactly.I agree...again...
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Ramble
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31-07-2009, 02:35 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua View Post
Exactly. He must be doing something right IMO. All of his dogs look so confident and happy. I think that kind of disproves that he rules by fear, as some would have us believe
Why does it disprove that?
I can repost the fotage of him slapping a dog that is showing calming signals if you like?
It shows nothing other than footage is taken of his dogs when they are relatively calm. I can take a photo of Cosmo and Tango at this moment(who are play fighting and biting each other and growling and being stupid..) OR I could take one of them in an hour when they will be upside down on the sofa snoring...it just depends when you take a picture surely?
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Trouble
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31-07-2009, 02:41 PM
I think they are referring to when you see the dogs together in his centre on film, not a photo. Of course you can edit film together to make it seem however you want if that's what you want to do, but try living every day with the breeds he has in the centre and rule by fear I don't think so and it's not necessary.
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Ramble
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31-07-2009, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by Trouble View Post
I think they are referring to when you see the dogs together in his centre on film, not a photo. Of course you can edit film together to make it seem however you want if that's what you want to do, but try living every day with the breeds he has in the centre and rule by fear I don't think so and it's not necessary.
Hmmm.
I think there is a basic misunderstanding throughout these threads to be honest.
I think that the Pro CMers think the anti Cmers see him as someone who is stringing dogs up, kicking them and hitting them 24/7. I don't think that for one moment,nor do I think his supporters do that all the time.

As I have said countless times...I have no issue with calm and assertive...and his advice re food and exercise, it's all good stuff and I am sure most of the anti CMers are calm and assertive and feed and exercise their dogs well.

My issue is with the shows. It si with showing people that a way to control a dog is to kick,choke or hit it ...or use a prong or ecollar. I don't approve of the methods..no matter how short a time they are used for, I cannot condone them being used at all. I abhor methods like that and the whole 'I need to dominate the dog' approach. It doesn't matter if he just strings a dog up once...one time is too many in my book. The footage I put up on the Dog Whisperer thread clearly shows him slapping a dog...on the footage I put on here it shows him telling an owner he is being dominant and that his dog is not 'intimidated' by him,but submissive, because he has to be dominant.

I just don't like that approach..in life in general let alone with my dogs.

At the end of the day...I am sure he is able to live calmy and assertively with his dogs BUT the methods he uses to get to that point are what bother me. I also don't think such methods should be being advocated for the use of the general public, no matter what warning is flashed up people do use the methods...I've seen it out and about and heard people talking about it. It is all a serious accident waiting to happen.

As I say...I dont'think he wanders round slamming his dogs into an alpha roll every 2 minutes. I do question his methods though and will continue to do so.
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CheekyChihuahua
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31-07-2009, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by Ramble View Post
Why does it disprove that?
I can repost the fotage of him slapping a dog that is showing calming signals if you like?
It shows nothing other than footage is taken of his dogs when they are relatively calm. I can take a photo of Cosmo and Tango at this moment(who are play fighting and biting each other and growling and being stupid..) OR I could take one of them in an hour when they will be upside down on the sofa snoring...it just depends when you take a picture surely?

Arrrrh, so you are saying then that the photograph of him with the dogs was taken when the dogs were calm after a major run around to wear them out. Right, I see What is that term - "clutching at straws" - there comes a time you have to accept that CM has control over his dogs and they are not petrified of him, as seen on his shows; as seen in pictures.

As for re-posting the footage of CM "slapping" the dog, what point? You will say that the dog was just about to roll over and be a good doggy. I will say that CM did nothing wrong just a touch with the hand to gain the dogs attention. What earthly point in going over old ground

Mind you, I had envisaged a reply saying that the dogs were drugged or the picture had been "doctored" so the argument you've come up with isn't all that bad considering
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