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View Poll Results: Is CM improving as a TV trainer & offering more apt advice
Yes 45 52.33%
No 41 47.67%
Voters: 86. You may not vote on this poll - please see pinned thread in this section for details.



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CheekyChihuahua
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29-05-2009, 01:36 PM
A personal opinion, is exactly that PERSONAL!!! How can you have a personal opinion based on other peoples opinions and beliefs. It's like saying you don't like pizza because you've read in the papers that it's vile and on food forums the majority of people think it's disgusting. Therefore you don't like pizza!!!!! To have a valid opinion on CM I think you would have to watch several shows, take in the criticism as well as the positive points you read about him and then, maybe then, you could have an opinion that others would feel was a considered opinion, rather than a second-hand opinion
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 01:37 PM
OK Jackbox, I know I shouldn't rise to the bait, I was going to resist it, but I can't !!!

How do you know that SE needs a good wash? Have you met him? What do you look like after you have walked your pack, mucked them out, done whatever you do with them? What do you look like after an afternoon's gardening in the hot sun? Or after a long bike ride ?

You may be different from me, but I know what I look like, and that is like something the cat has dragged in backwards! Like a pile of **** quite frankly! As for when I came back after an afternoon of poo picking the field, mucking out and grooming 3 horses, then going for a 2 or 3 hour hack, I would smell less than fragrant and look like a dung heap ! My nails and hands were filthy, if it was wet weather, I would be covered in mud and worse, there would be brown streaks on my face where I had scratched my nose, I looked truly minging !

After SE has been Dancing with Wolves all day long, it may just be a tad reasonable for him to look like he has had just a bit more than a bad hair day !

It is when people make these totally ridiculous remarks that SE looks like he needs a good wash, that I just cannot take anything else that they say seriously ... which is, in your case, a shame because you talk a lot of sense sometimes !
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by CheekyChihuahua View Post
A personal opinion, is exactly that PERSONAL!!! How can you have a personal opinion based on other peoples opinions and beliefs. It's like saying you don't like pizza because you've read in the papers that it's vile and on food forums the majority of people think it's disgusting. Therefore you don't like pizza!!!!! To have a valid opinion on CM I think you would have to watch several shows, take in the criticism as well as the positive points you read about him and then, maybe then, you could have an opinion that others would feel was a considered opinion, rather than a second-hand opinion

Well said CC !
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by muttzrule View Post
See, I can see the good and the bad of CM. I watch the dog wisperer every week, I've seen most all of the them, and I can say that he HAS improved over the years. He is far less violent, and uses more PR methods and fewer phsyically coercive methods.

He does take breed characteristics into consideration, in fact, thats usually a big part of his treatment protocol. For example, a couple had a beagle that Cesar advised playing tracking games with. He advised John Grogran (Writer of Marley and Me) to train his new dog (lab) in retrieving work with marvelous results. He uses treats, he uses positive associations, he uses the pack which is amazing.

He takes dog aggressive dogs and they live with a group of well balanced dogs for a few weeks and learn how to behave like a dog around other dogs, and how to speak dog language. I think this makes sense and it works. I've seen this same method work with horses too. Thats where i think his true genius lies.

BUT....

In my mind he is far to violent with fearful dogs. Hanging them from the leash and alpha rolling, while it isn't shown on TV as much any more, still makes my skin crawl. And using a shock collar to teach a dog to leave a cat alone, boggles the mind. Also the truly "dominant" dog is a rarity. I do think he takes that to the extreme and it is annoying.

But I would say 75-80% of what he does is good stuff.

I think you have to take the good and bad in all things. No one person, or technique is going to be perfect.
Totally agree with everything you say, muttz, especially concerning the shock collar and the cat. I fully approved of him using one on Daddy to stop him going near rattle snakes, the end justified the means, but to stop a dog harassing a cat? Absolutely not, it is entirely natural for dogs to chase cats, and equally it is entirely natural for cats to stand up for themselves with their claws. The dogs soon learn that a cat will take out its eyes, and leave them alone. You do not need to shock him to teach him this lesson, simply because the dog will learn for himself and live. In Daddy's case, he was going to get killed by a rattler, end of. The end justified the means.

I would put a higher % on my Cesar support, probably around 90-95 on a good day?
Shona
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29-05-2009, 01:44 PM
the thing with CM, is once you have seen him once you have seen it all,

its a one box of tricks wonder,

as a trainer I constantly have to come up with new ideas/methods of training to suit each dog,

but hes not a trainer as such is he, he takes on "dominant dogs with behaviour issues"
but even then its the same old box of tricks,
I take on dogs with fear/aggressive issues and many others, again I have not found one size fits all.

Im not against CM, I think now and then he has his place, but the only point to the show it all the diff dogs you see, your not going to see anything diff from him
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ben Mcfuzzylugs View Post
To an extent I do agree - and I have said before that some of what he says is good common sense, some is a bit daft but there is that 20% which is totaly wrong and dangerous - and is being copied by the GP - I watched a friend of mine going into a house with a strange dog - the dog bounced up to greet him and he alpha rolled the dog! how dangerous is that

The Marley and Me guy episode was actually where I stopped watching him - sure he sent the guy and dog off to a gundog trainer - but during the episode CM also goded the dog into actually biting a duck and scaring a chicken - I cannot condone any training method that alows another animal to be hurt or scared just for TV

another point someone made (cant rem who) about exercise with inline skates and stuff

Sure its fun to do fun things with your dog - but mental stimulation is more important - dogs need to sniff about and just be dogs
If you have a high energy dog and to calm it down every day you take it for a long run till its tired - sure for a few days that may work - but all that happens is that the dog gets fitter and you have to go out for longer
a high energy dog needs to learn how to calm down and be still, it needs to learn that life is pretty dull
If I have loads of time on my hands I can take my dogs for a 3 - 4 hour walk - but they get more and more energy the further we go
If I want them to be calm when I am out at work or busy or something then a much shorter walk (playing, and sniffing and meeting dogs and stuff)and a clicker sesh and mibby something nice to chew is a much better way to get well behaived calm dogs
Totally agree with you Ben about the dog that jumped up to greet your friend - but in this case, it is unfair to shoot the messenger I think, CM being the messenger. However, the Marley guy with the chicken. The poor chicken was so petrified that it crapped itself, all over CM, and it jolly well served him right. I did not like that episode either.

It was me who said about the inline skates, jogging and biking etc. with dogs. Tai absolutely adores biking, it is a ritualised hunt, the pack are going hunting, and he is so totally focussed it is lovely to see. We don't need to put him on a lead, he runs along beside us, but we still do around livestock and near roads, just to be on the safe side.
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
the thing with CM, is once you have seen him once you have seen it all,

its a one box of tricks wonder,

as a trainer I constantly have to come up with new ideas/methods of training to suit each dog,

but hes not a trainer as such is he, he takes on "dominant dogs with behaviour issues"
but even then its the same old box of tricks,
I take on dogs with fear/aggressive issues and many others, again I have not found one size fits all.

Im not against CM, I think now and then he has his place, but the only point to the show it all the diff dogs you see, your not going to see anything diff from him

I agree to a certain extent Shona with the principle of what you are saying, but not that his box of tricks is always the same. He DOES take into account breed characteristics, he DOES take into account lifestyle, human preferences etc., and most importantly of all IMO he advocates the DAILY exercise of dogs.

I think sometimes he does bang on too much about dominant dogs, but he is usually right IMO, not always, but usually. No-one's perfect and he has done several if not many things that I have totally disagreed with ... that chicken incident with the guy who owned Marley was a proof in point.
Shona
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29-05-2009, 01:56 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
I agree to a certain extent Shona with the principle of what you are saying, but not that his box of tricks is always the same. He DOES take into account breed characteristics, he DOES take into account lifestyle, human preferences etc., and most importantly of all IMO he advocates the DAILY exercise of dogs.

I think sometimes he does bang on too much about dominant dogs, but he is usually right IMO, not always, but usually. No-one's perfect and he has done several if not many things that I have totally disagreed with ... that chicken incident with the guy who owned Marley was a proof in point.
lol, list me some of the handling and training methods he uses
Gnasher
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29-05-2009, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Shona View Post
lol, list me some of the handling and training methods he uses
For starters, he does not train dogs, he trains the owners. He will not teach dogs to sit, to stay, to come, whatever. Unfortunately, he does have a horrible habit of continuing to use whatever gadget the owners use, such as if their dog wears a choke collar, instead of throwing the horrible thing in the bin, he will allow the continued use of the collar. (I hate those Illusion collars, but that's another thread!)

As far as handling goes, he aims for owners to be able to walk their dogs, to heel, or reasonably so, not pulling, on a nice slack lead, walking and looking postively forward, nice and relaxed. He teaches owners to use mainly their voice to control their dog ... tssst works really well, an Oi is a bit more robust, both these work a treat with Tai, who pulled like an express train when we got him a year ago aged 5.

If dogs do not respond to a tsst or whatever sound you wish to use (I find " ******* heel ! works quite well if I am being ignored!!), a short sharp tug on the lead simultaneously with the sound is used. At no stage should the dog's name be used, only use the dog's name in praise when he has achieved a successful outcome to a command.

At all times Cesar advocates the importance of the handler's body language. Hold yourself tall and erect, tummy in, good posture, but nice and relaxed, with relaxed shoulders, no tension, dogs pick up on tension and the energy you give out will be anything but calm and assertive, it will be tense and assertive, which is bad. A firm but controlled voice, no squeaking ! No "hello my little sausage, are we ready to go for walkies then!" in a high pitched little girl voice. This just acts as a wind up! No action until the dog is calm, the door doesn't open until the dog is calm and relaxed, preferably sitting. No barking, no spinning round in circles, no jumping up and down. This is particularly important with a ruddy great mule like I have !

The aim is to set rules, boundaries and limitations for the dog ... and these are YOUR rules, boundaries and limitations, so nothing is right or wrong. If you want your dog to lie on the furniture, on the bed, go out of the door first, whatever it is, that is fine, as long as it is OK with YOU. The human sets the rules, so some are going to have more than others.

That's the basics of non red-zoners. For red-zoners, the same rules apply, but the enforcing of these is going to be on a different level, and it is in this area in particular that so many people have problems with CM. I take the very pragmatic view that if a dog is living on Death Row, about to be put down because he has bitten ex number of babies or whatever, then there should be no holds barred within reason. You are likely to have less than a week to turn this dog around, and personally if that means you have to pin the dog down whilst he shrieks his rage at you for 10 minutes with red eyes blazing in hatred, I don't care, if that is what it takes to save the dog's life for a few weeks so that then the dog can be taken right back to basics, right back to the very beginning, then so be it.

I am thinking of the Jinto that Cesar helped, it belonged to a famous actor, and the dog was just about the most dangerous animal I think I have ever seen. I haven't seen this episode for a long time, but I remember being amazed how Cesar eventually managed to achieve a level of success with the dog. I cannot remember if the dog went on to become a normal well balanced dog, I believe he did, but I was impressed by that episode.
Shona
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29-05-2009, 02:31 PM
Originally Posted by Gnasher View Post
For starters, he does not train dogs, he trains the owners. He will not teach dogs to sit, to stay, to come, whatever. Unfortunately,
thats strange as many times when I have seen him hes handling dogs,

yes trainers need to train the owner, but there is always a fair amount of handling of dogs with behavioural problems from the trainer, before the owner may be ready to do this.

As far as handling goes, he aims for owners to be able to walk their dogs, to heel, or reasonably so, not pulling, on a nice slack lead, walking and looking postively forward, nice and relaxed. He teaches owners to use mainly their voice to control their dog ... tssst works really well, an Oi is a bit more robust, both these work a treat with Tai, who pulled like an express train when we got him a year ago aged 5.

If dogs do not respond to a tsst or whatever sound you wish to use (I find " ******* heel ! works quite well if I am being ignored!!), a short sharp tug on the lead simultaneously with the sound is used. At no stage should the dog's name be used, only use the dog's name in praise when he has achieved a successful outcome to a command.

At all times Cesar advocates the importance of the handler's body language. Hold yourself tall and erect, tummy in, good posture, but nice and relaxed, with relaxed shoulders, no tension, dogs pick up on tension and the energy you give out will be anything but calm and assertive, it will be tense and assertive, which is bad. A firm but controlled voice, no squeaking ! No "hello my little sausage, are we ready to go for walkies then!" in a high pitched little girl voice. This just acts as a wind up! No action until the dog is calm, the door doesn't open until the dog is calm and relaxed, preferably sitting. No barking, no spinning round in circles, no jumping up and down. This is particularly important with a ruddy great mule like I have !

The aim is to set rules, boundaries and limitations for the dog ... and these are YOUR rules, boundaries and limitations, so nothing is right or wrong. If you want your dog to lie on the furniture, on the bed, go out of the door first, whatever it is, that is fine, as long as it is OK with YOU. The human sets the rules, so some are going to have more than others.

That's the basics of non red-zoners. For red-zoners, the same rules apply, but the enforcing of these is going to be on a different level, and it is in this area in particular that so many people have problems with CM. I take the very pragmatic view that if a dog is living on Death Row, about to be put down because he has bitten ex number of babies or whatever, then there should be no holds barred within reason. You are likely to have less than a week to turn this dog around, and personally if that means you have to pin the dog down whilst he shrieks his rage at you for 10 minutes with red eyes blazing in hatred, I don't care, if that is what it takes to save the dog's life for a few weeks so that then the dog can be taken right back to basics, right back to the very beginning, then so be it.

I am thinking of the Jinto that Cesar helped, it belonged to a famous actor, and the dog was just about the most dangerous animal I think I have ever seen. I haven't seen this episode for a long time, but I remember being amazed how Cesar eventually managed to achieve a level of success with the dog. I cannot remember if the dog went on to become a normal well balanced dog, I believe he did, but I was impressed by that episode.
again there are no real methods listed above, yes voice, BL, confidence is all important, but its pretty basic training stuff, if you see what I mean.

the other things we could list would be

jabb
side kick
string up
pin
prong
e-collar
flooding



do you have a history in training dogs?
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